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  #11  
Old 08-05-2012, 02:55 PM
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LAMPSguy LAMPSguy is offline
 
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Default Most Important thing

From a crew resource standpoint, the most important thing is to brief your chosen method prior to walking to the aircraft. Realistically doesn't matter what you call it. If you brief it as a positive 3 way change of controls using the phrase "You eat the cornflakes", "Roger, I eat the cornflakes"... that should work just fine. We always use the previous mentioned 3 way change of controls, but I would argue that the only times I have seen an improper change or release of controls is with a poor brief or not using the agreed upon terminology.
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2012, 03:28 PM
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Jamie Aust Jamie Aust is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAMPSguy View Post
the most important thing is to brief your chosen method prior to walking to the aircraft.
This is the point I was going to bring up. I agree 100%
All that will be said is, Handing over, Taking over, You have control.
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  #13  
Old 08-06-2012, 06:31 AM
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eh_v8_tor eh_v8_tor is offline
 
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Default Control Transfer

These are very interesting with the tactile confirmation....perfect for mid-flight maneuvering. I don't remember having done this while doing tailwheel checkouts from the back seat of a Citabria.

Are we talking about a check out, or some type of student/instructor type relationship here? If yes, then simply a loud and clear verbal method may be appropriate. During a badly bounced landing is not the time for control inputs that could aggravate the situation and cause a stall/spin.

My students were briefed that if I said that "I have control", it was imediate and they could be sure that I did have it. Some would even put their hands in the air so they could be seen from the back seat. Usually it was verified by a big change such as the throttle opening up for a go-around, a big side-slip, stick movement or what have you.

At my present airline control is transfered everytime the first officer lands. The captain is the only one with a tiller which is needed to make sharp turns off the runway. This exchange is ONLY Initiated by the pilot taking control. It goes like this: "My control" ..."Your control". Of course this is much easier in a side by side situation where you see the other pilot take the throttles.

Kudos for thinking about this...its a very important issue.

Steve W.
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  #14  
Old 08-06-2012, 07:59 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff A View Post
...trying to complete a comprehensive POH...
Why would this be in the POH?

While great information, it really has nothing to do with how the aircraft flies or performs.

The POH can become so complex that it becomes nearly useless.
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  #15  
Old 08-06-2012, 08:04 AM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVZoomie View Post
with students where the instructor sits in the back seat the 'shake to take, pump to pass' for comm out an additional technique is for the front seater (student) to raise their hands to the canopy so the back seater can see the student is no longer trying to fly. Unless you have formation mirrors, its difficult to get this to work the opposite way. Technique only...

^^^This^^^ in a comm out situation. Pump to pass, shake to take.

Otherwise it's three way positive transfer.

Oh, and three hard bangs on the canopy means "eject."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
Interesting. When I learned to fly, we only did it as a two-way transfer.

If the person flying was initiating the transfer, he would say "You have control." The person taking control would say "I have control."

If the person not flying was initiating the transfer, he would say "I have control." The person giving control would say "You have control."

I can't think of a situation where we needed more confirmation than that, but that's probably because I just didn't run into one...

This used to be the standard, there have been incidents however when the pilot flying doesn't hear the response of "I have control" thus he doesn't release the controls, and you have two people fighting over it. Same thing the other way, he says "You have control" and doesn't get a "I have control" but gets side tracked or thinks he heard the response, pilot he's passing too doesn't take it, now no one is flying. Three way positive exchange is the new standard.

The ever evolving human factors.
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Last edited by Sig600 : 08-06-2012 at 08:10 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-06-2012, 09:11 AM
NASA515 NASA515 is offline
 
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Default

If you listen to the Miracle on the Hudson ditching voice recorder tape - it's very short and sweet:

Capt. Sully: "My airplane"

Co-pilot Jeff Skyles: "Your airplane!"

Bob Bogash
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  #17  
Old 08-06-2012, 11:50 AM
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LAMPSguy LAMPSguy is offline
 
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Default A little disconcerting

One thing that has always bugged me is when students are taught to IMMEDIATELY release the controls. I used to get some who would hear "I have the controls" and it was like when the road runner would shoot away and all you saw was a poof. Their hands are then off the controls and they are so scared that they end up yelling the response. In my case these students were Navy/Coast Guard but exclusively Air Force trained in the T-6 for primary. Not knocking the Air Force, but I totally disagree with this, if you let them get into such extremis that they need to "eject" their hands and feet from the controls, you probably let it go too far as an instructor.

My brief explains that the 1st "I/you have controls" is to inform the non flying pilot to come into the controls, and ride along"
2nd "you/I have controls" is to confirm that the non flying pilot is now ready for the execution order, which is the 3rd reply, confirming the actual change of control responsibility. We use the same type of interaction for formation lead changes.
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  #18  
Old 08-06-2012, 04:24 PM
VPYVO VPYVO is offline
 
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Default Use different words

Not a bad idea to use completely different words in each nominated phrase to ensure no partial phrases are heard which may lead to any misunderstanding.
My airline uses these two initially:

"Handing over"
"I have control"

"I have control"
"Handing over."

Then go and spoil it with:

"In abnormal or emergency situations in particular, the positive takeover of control must be clearly established and the call ?taking over? used to indicate the formal change over in responsibility and control."

taking over could be heard as "(something) Handing??? over" woops!

During training I once thoughtlessly said "Now let go with your right hand and put it on the trim wheel" only to find the aircraft bunting over abruptly.
Now I would say "Hold on to the stick with your left hand and with put your right hand on the trim"
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  #19  
Old 08-06-2012, 07:29 PM
fmiddleton fmiddleton is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig600 View Post
Oh, and three hard bangs on the canopy means "eject."
I would think that a sharp increase in air noise above one's head would be sufficient?
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  #20  
Old 08-06-2012, 10:08 PM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmiddleton View Post
I would think that a sharp increase in air noise above one's head would be sufficient?
The seats are usually sequential depending on the mode selected, so if one person pulls the handle they both go. The three bangs on the canopy is the warning is more so that both can get into proper body position before the 5500 lb rocket under your butt lights off. Nasty surprise if you don't know its coming!
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