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  #31  
Old 06-28-2009, 12:04 AM
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AMURRAY AMURRAY is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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[quote=freegespeed;57420]

The point of this reply is to give my perspective on how much work is involved to get through this A&P program. It's over 1900 hours total not including homework and studying for tests, of which I have only about 400 hours done, whew! It takes 40 to 60 hours to get a private pilot license, so you can see it's an exponential difference in time between those two endeavors.


Totally agree. A&P cert was the first I earned and my most prized. Obtaining commercial multi instrument was a walk in the park compared to the time spent getting an A&P. I believe A&P's are in a large part a dying breed. I know a lots of people that want to be pilots. I don't know anybody that wants to be an A&P. Almost all of the part 147 schools in my area have closed because of lack of attendance. The military is not producing mechanics like they used to. A lot of A&P's including me came from a generation that worked on their cars in high school. Those days are over.
I don't think the curriculum of a part 147 school is very difficult. The hard part is doing the 1900 hours plus an oral, practical and written for General Airframe Powerplant.
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  #32  
Old 06-28-2009, 04:20 AM
131RB 131RB is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 302
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I have been an A&P for a major airline for 25 years. I have been sidelineing in general aviation for just as long. Why? It sure aint the pay! I love what I do or I wouldnt do it. A&Ps are no different than doctors you have good ones and bad ones. Some can do it all, some specialize and some shouldnt even touch a wrench. To make a statement that A&Ps cant be trusted is wrong.You have to get a feel for the person your working with. I do feel that a good A&P is underapreciated and most people have no idea whats involved in getting the ticket and staying out of trouble. There is alot more to being a good mechanic than banging a few rivets, timming an engine and changing oil and spark plugs.
Let us not forget,Ongoing knowledge of the FAR's, wood dope and fabric, welding, hydraulics, propellers, engines recips- opposed and round, turbines, electrical, sheetmetal, composites and the list goes on. In short a jack of all trades.
The A&P test was no picnic when I took mine. You have a General test 50 questions (if I remember corectly) Airframe 100 questions and Powerplant 100 questions, and an Oral and Practical that can last as long as the examiner see's fit. As I recall about 8hrs each for my airframe portion and powerplant.
In closing I will say this, to anyone interested in your A&P you either need to do it for the love of aviation or your own personal needs, dont do it for money or respect because its not going to make you happy.
Ryan Bendure
A&P
RV4
Rocket progressing
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  #33  
Old 06-28-2009, 07:37 AM
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mikegraycmg mikegraycmg is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Grand Prairie, Texas
Posts: 232
Default Getting close

I'm about 2/3 of the way through A&P school at Tarrant County College. I know plenty of guys that aren't A&Ps that do many things better than I do ( the best sheet metal worker I know doesn't have his A&P). But, the education has taught me a very important skill, and that's knowing when a thing has been done right, and what it takes to make it right.

The school doesn't teach you to be the best, but it does teach you to know when a thing has been done the right way. The assurance that you take from that knowledge changes your whole approach.
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  #34  
Old 07-01-2009, 05:37 PM
LarsonAero LarsonAero is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Willamette Valley, OR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon View Post
No offence to anyone but in my experience A&Ps are like auto mechanics, most of them don?t know what there doing and are more likely to cause problems then solve them, ...
Just prefacing your statement with "no offence" sure doesn't go far to keep from offending....
Quote:
...
I am talking about the A&Ps working at FBOs and or free lance who might come to your hanger to work, I suspect there better in the airline industry!
My experience has been that the average airline industry AMT is not an A&P, and most likely only understands their certain area...if that. Chances are they're laid off before they become an expert.

An A&P is nothing like an auto mechanic. The stakes are much, much higher, the education and experience required is higher....and the pay is usually less.

An A&P license is a license to learn. Simply possessing an A&P doesn't give you authorization to do anything you want. There are experience, tool, and other requirements before you can perform a maintenance operation. While work on experimentals is certainly more lax on requirements....work on certified aircraft is a whole other ball game. Either way...the liability of working on aircraft is huge.

Dismissing A&P's as those who cause more problems than they solve....shows a lack on knowledge on your part.
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  #35  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:38 PM
MNAv8or MNAv8or is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Denver, Co
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I have been an A&P for a little over 5 years now. Had my IA for about a year. I'm only 25 and still a young pup when it comes to aircraft maintenance. But I have known from the 6th grade I was going to be an A&P because I love what I do.

I work on everything from 150's up through citation X's. My full time job is working for a corporate flight department running 9 airplanes, 5 of which are bigger jets. Where i live, the corporate world is very cut throat because of all the Northwest mechancis that are flooded up here in the twin cities. I have lost more then one opening to a NWA mechanic that had been laid off 6 years ago and left aviation because the pay wasn't there anymore. But when a position opens up, they get the job because they have 20 plus years experience, and then don't know a single thing about the jet they are going to work on due to the statement made above where they only worked in the landing gear crew. Or I am dismissed because of my age. One boss actually read my resume and said I was full of it after looking at my aircraft experience, saying that there was no way I could have worked on all these airplanes for my age. That same boss then met up with me at Meridian school in florida and by the end of school, threw so much money at me to come work for him I couldn't turn it down. But the fact remained that I was dissmissed because of my age. Its funny that I end up working for a corporation now that when I started, the chief of maintenance couldn't believe I knew all I did an could let me tear apart a citiation X without having to look over my shoulder. But maybe that is the difference between loveing my job and what I do and someone who just wants the paycheck.

I agree with everyone, get to know your mechanic. If you don't trust him, then don't use that one. And it never hurts to get a second opinion. I do work on the side and I also go to the hangars of customers to work on their airplanes. If I say something that they don't like, I tell them to get a second opinion and even offer up names and numbers of local shops they can call. I want the customer to be safe when they strap there family in the airplane. If having second and third opinions is what that takes, it doesn't hurt my pride at all to bring someone else in on the situation.

Comparing what I do to an auto mechanic really outrages me. I might be one of the few that did grow up working on my own cars and repairing the tractors and grain trucks on the farm for my age. But for the money that the normal A&P makes working at an FBO, I can understand why no one is getting their license to do maintanenance anymore. They get paid next to nothing, and if something goes wrong, they get to go to jail. And they are very underappreciated in what they do. WHen a car breaks down, you pull over to the side of the road, call someone to come get the car and you are inconvienanced with your time. If an A&P does something wrong (and I don't care who you are, everyone makes mistakes... its human nature) the airplane will come down, but sometimes results in a loss of life.

I have no problem working with customers on their airplanes and have signed off many condition inspections for people as I have found most homebuilders build airplanes to better standards than certified (some, not all...) I have also run across people like the gentleman above who thinks that A&P's aren't worth the air they breath. And I am more than happy to push their airplane outside of the hangar and tell them to go somewhere else, as they are useually the ones that you don't want to touch their airplane anyway becuase they are the type of people that are never happy. But the second they are stranded at your airport with no tools and wants to be your best friend to get what they want, their tune changes rapidly....
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  #36  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:54 PM
pvans pvans is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Battle Ground,WA
Posts: 29
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Amed started this thread which included a comment that the factory folks know best. I believe this is not always the case. If you read the current AOPA magazine, July 09 issue, there is an article about running lean of peak. It states that most old experienced mechanics AND Lycoming and Continental were against it for a long time, but as more and more people are doing it successfully, they are now coming around.

The factory is usually most interested in reducing warranty expenses, maintaining a reputation for reliable products, and keeping the sales pipeline flowing.They are not that interested in saving pilots money on fuel.

As for my own case, I have been an A&P since 1991, and IA since 1994. I decided that having to hire others all the time was a huge bother. I had worked under the supervision of 2 other IA mechanics on certified and experimental aircraft ( not homebuilt though). I simply documented the hours spent in a letter, had the supervising mechanics sign it, and took that to the local FSDO. They examined the data and issued me a slip stating I had met the practical experience required. Then I simply studied for the 3 written tests. That was easy, just like any other FAA test all the questions they draw from are published, and compared to a college class, it was duck soup. Took the 3 tests all the same day. That qualified me to take the practical test. Found a retired instructor from the local community college AP school. He used the school facilities to give me the test. It lasted 6 hours, but really, it was more like hanging out in my grandfather's hangar than a serious test. Yes, I had to demonstrate many operations, but the gist of the test is the gut feel the examiner gets from working with the applicant. Just like when acting as a pilot, it does not take very long to determine if the person is capable or not. He can find any number of ways to pass or fail a student.

Then, after 3 years of experience, you are qualified to take a 2 part written test to become an IA. One part is closed book, the other part open book, because you end up researching data, etc. In order to keep the IA current, I am required to do 4 annual inspections per year, or take a class. Once each 2 years now, we all meet to present our qualifications for renewal. The room is full of maybe 100 guys who want to renew their IA. My estimation is that 20 work for actual FBO's doing daily work as their way of supporting a family, 10 are guys like me that do mostly work on their own airplanes, and 70 are between 65 and 90 years old and like hanging out at airports, talking airplanes, and maybe doing one little project per year. Those guys take the class and remain legally current IA's.

So, now I am fully qualified to perform essentially any operation on my personal airplanes, from annuals on down the line. It has made owning airplanes sensible for me. I do owner assisted annuals for a limited number of friends. It helped that I had a mechanical engineering degree to begin with.

Peter
Flying and maintining:
Cessna 210, Taylorcraft BC-12D, RV3, Bucker BU1-131 biplane, Cessna 172. Building a Harmon Rocket, now at the wiring stage.
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  #37  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:58 PM
LarsonAero LarsonAero is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Willamette Valley, OR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNAv8or View Post
... But the second they are stranded at your airport with no tools and wants to be your best friend to get what they want, their tune changes rapidly....

Now that's the truth.....they all want to be your best friend when they need to borrow tools. Tools which are not cheap. Homebuilders tend to understand that....they've had to purchase a few tools themselves. To the average "Joe Pilot" who purchases his tools at harbor freight....and uses them once or twice, they can't understand how more money can be in a tool box than the average mechanic makes in two years income.

Often tools are what dictates what I can and can't do as a mechanic.
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  #38  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:59 PM
ArjanPlomp ArjanPlomp is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germantown, MD
Posts: 71
Thumbs up 2 A&P's: 5 different opinions?

Today I asked two well respected A&P's (&IA's) a couple of questions (both present at the same time) regarding sticking valves, oil consumption, engine break-in and leaning procedures. Both gentlemen are top class, know each other and respect each other well, but their answers were completely different (surprise?) on each question!

I told them that I will never ask them a question at the same time again, unless it is Friday 5pm, so that I'm sure they will both have the same answer to get me out of their (different) shops. It was the only time I received a unanimous -joking- answer: "you got that right!".

BTW: both helped me fix our engine problem. Free of charge...
PS: regarding the answers to my questions and my conclusion: I'm going to follow my own common sense!
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  #39  
Old 07-01-2009, 10:46 PM
Russ McCutcheon's Avatar
Russ McCutcheon Russ McCutcheon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
Posts: 908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsonAero View Post
Just prefacing your statement with "no offence" sure doesn't go far to keep from offending....


My experience has been that the average airline industry AMT is not an A&P, and most likely only understands their certain area...if that. Chances are they're laid off before they become an expert.

An A&P is nothing like an auto mechanic. The stakes are much, much higher, the education and experience required is higher....and the pay is usually less.

An A&P license is a license to learn. Simply possessing an A&P doesn't give you authorization to do anything you want. There are experience, tool, and other requirements before you can perform a maintenance operation. While work on experimentals is certainly more lax on requirements....work on certified aircraft is a whole other ball game. Either way...the liability of working on aircraft is huge.

Dismissing A&P's as those who cause more problems than they solve....shows a lack on knowledge on your part.
Well I did say in my experience!!! and I stand buy what I said and I am better off not trusting any one but myself or at least be there to see what there doing and decide if I agree or not, bottom line is that I have to determine if it's safe to fly, so far in my 1000 hours of flight time (mostly RVs) I have seen the majority of A&Ps I have dealt with should not be left unchecked so I check and or watch all there work and thank God I seldom need one, good ones are hard to find though as I said I have found a couple of good ones, to bad they where not any where near home. On the flip side it could be possibly reckless of you to make a blanket statement about how good they all are. Trust me it can be a dentist, doctor, auto mechanic, A&P, a layer, or almost any trade, the majority are not at the top of there game and many are lousy, some are great though.

P.S. the good ones got a nice tip and I never ask to borrow there tools.
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Last edited by Russ McCutcheon : 07-01-2009 at 10:52 PM.
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  #40  
Old 07-02-2009, 09:24 AM
grimr2 grimr2 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mustang, Ok (OKC)
Posts: 40
Default Just an info note:

The USAF has more acft w/recips to work on then 10 yrs ago, and they are getting more all the time...they call 'em UAVs. The mechanics on these birds will be experienced with "normal" GA engines and composite/sheet metal structures. So, if you are someone who might be looking to hire a veteran in the future, keep them in mind.
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Mustang, Ok
8/8A eventually, N985BG reserved
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