Less intense formation clinics?

[rocketbob]

I've flown with a a few guys who "liked" and "flew" formation, but didn't come close to our standards. The lack of discipline caused a few situations I was uncomfortable with, like guys losing sight of each other, dropping so far back lead couldn't see them, brief one thing but doing something completely different in the flight...I could go on. The standards are in place for everyone's safety, and to be as safe as possible, you have to set the bar high and fly to that level.

[fehdxl]

Originally Posted by Buggsy2

Seems just what I'm interested in. Where can I get more info?

Sent you a private message. -Jim

[fehdxl]

Originally Posted by JonJay

I am curious to know what those standards are. The FFI standards, which are modeled closely after the T-34 manual, and as I understand the Bonanza program, are FAA approved programs.

Here's how I understand it: the FAA recognizes the cards issued by FFI or FAST as the prerequisite for formation flight in FAA wavered airspace. From what I can tell, FFI is mostly RV specific with a few exceptions; whereas FAST stemmed from the war bird community and now is very broadly inclusive having 19 signatories (see the end for a list). There is no formal "Bonanza program" that is FAA approved that I know of. If you are referring to the required self-imposed standards as part of Bonanza's to Oshkosh (B2OSH), then the FAA really has no part in it since that formation is not operating in FAA wavered airspace. Rather, that group has developed a minimum standards and required experience based on their mission...which is to safely fly from Rockford to Oshkosh. Also note, that the T-34 Association, which publishes the T-34 manual you reference, is a signatory to FAST.

I'll point out that both FFI and FAST have formation guides/manuals/documents: (1) FFI's Formation Standards and Proficiency Program and (2) FAST's 'The Formation Pilots Knowledge Guide' Please take a look at them both to see which you prefer. I'll tell you that I'm biased toward FAST because I believe that the idea of having an overarching set of standards with aircraft specific supplements is the way to go, and that's how their organization/documents are built.

Anyway, just more food for thought.

Fly safe!

-Jim

P.S. Here are the 19 FAST signatories: http://www.flyfast.org/content/fast-signatories Airpower West; Canadian Harvard Aircraft Association; Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum; Classic Jet Aircraft Association; Commemorative Air Force/TRARON; EAA Warbirds of America; Fighter Formation Qualification Group; Joint Liaison Formation Committee; New Zealand Warbird Association; North American Trainer Association; Red Star Pilots Association; Sport Class Air Racing Association; Stearman Flight; Swift Formation Committee; T-34 Association; Valiant Air Command.

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by fehdxl

Here's how I understand it: the FAA recognizes the cards issued by FFI or FAST as the prerequisite for formation flight in FAA wavered airspace. From what I can tell, FFI is mostly RV specific with a few exceptions; whereas FAST stemmed from the war bird community and now is very broadly inclusive having 19 signatories (see the end for a list). There is no formal "Bonanza program" that is FAA approved that I know of. If you are referring to the required self-imposed standards as part of Bonanza's to Oshkosh (B2OSH), then the FAA really has no part in it since that formation is not operating in FAA wavered airspace. Rather, that group has developed a minimum standards and required experience based on their mission...which is to safely fly from Rockford to Oshkosh. Also note, that the T-34 Association, which publishes the T-34 manual you reference, is a signatory to FAST.

I'll point out that both FFI and FAST have formation guides/manuals/documents: (1) FFI's Formation Standards and Proficiency Program and (2) FAST's 'The Formation Pilots Knowledge Guide' Please take a look at them both to see which you prefer. I'll tell you that I'm biased toward FAST because I believe that the idea of having an overarching set of standards with aircraft specific supplements is the way to go, and that's how their organization/documents are built.

Anyway, just more food for thought.

Fly safe!

-Jim

P.S. Here are the 19 FAST signatories: http://www.flyfast.org/content/fast-signatories Airpower West; Canadian Harvard Aircraft Association; Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum; Classic Jet Aircraft Association; Commemorative Air Force/TRARON; EAA Warbirds of America; Fighter Formation Qualification Group; Joint Liaison Formation Committee; New Zealand Warbird Association; North American Trainer Association; Red Star Pilots Association; Sport Class Air Racing Association; Stearman Flight; Swift Formation Committee; T-34 Association; Valiant Air Command.

Jim:

Summary would be FAST is Warbards and FFI is everything else. Each of the groups that you list had their own program at one time. I had my initial formation training with Joint Liaison Formation Committee back in 1998. The late 90's is when the FAA required a recognized credentials and that is when everything that we have now started to come together.

FFI also has Bonanzas and Grumman aircraft in addition to RVs that fly formation with FFI cards. I know that the Bonanzas have their own flight supplement but do not know a lot about the Grumman guys. I am not aware about any FAST supplement for RVs.

I know three (3) RV guys that have FAST cards but the Warbirds for the most part want nothing to do with RVs from my experience. (or at least they want nothing to do with me) I have flown with two (2) RV guys that have FAST cards and both will adjust to the FFI RV Supplement when we fly together. The FFI RV Supplement is the standard that all the RV formation pilots that I have experience with are flying in Air Shows have adopted.

[Snowflake]

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer

Summary would be FAST is Warbards and FFI is everything else.

Except for the Swift Formation Committee, which has been the only way for Canadian RV pilots to get their ticket in Canada. There are half a dozen of us in the Pacific Northwest who are FAST qualified through SFC.

Getting back to the original post though...

I started formation in a "barely trained" manner. Our flying club put on a flypast each year on Remembrance Day that flew over the cenotaphs in our area. The formation was a mixed bag of aircraft that all flew at about 100mph, and originally the pilots were partially ex-military types if not ex-military pilots. Our briefings were pretty sparse, mostly consisting of what to do to stay in position, and what to do if it all goes sideways (basically, exit away from everyone else).

I started flying with RV owners before I stopped flying with that group, because some of the local RV pilots wanted to learn formation. We had a former RCAF instructor in our group, so he taught me and a couple of other people the same things he taught his students, using the slower airplanes we had access to at the time. That's when we learned about safety briefings, more significant emergency plans, and hand signals. And we learned to fly closer, and that flying closer was actually easier... In the slower flights, we typically flew 3-4 wingspans apart. After I bought my RV, I stopped flying with the slower group, and started flying with the RV's. Then we hooked up with the local Swift group, and started getting our FAST tickets.

I understand now why the formal training is important. Not because I want to fly formation with all my friends every time i'm up, but when I do happen to be on a flight when formation might happen, I have a skillset that I can draw on and an understanding of the same basic skill level in my fellow pilots.

For example: If a group of us were flying somewhere and had to pass through busy airspace, it would be both fun and a lot easier on ATC if we just formed up and came through as a formation with a single callsign and transponder blip. With the FAST trained group I fly with, we could easily set that up quickly on-air, and then handle it with hand-signals. We all know what the other pilots know, and trust them to fly safely with us.

As for the vernier throttle, I think the original poster said that he was "planning on installing" the vernier. In case he doesn't know about it, there is a company that makes a push-pull vernier. It acts as a vernier if you twist it, but if you push or pull on the knob, it moves freely as well. There isn't a button release on the end like most verniers. I don't have a link handy but I think if you search for push-pull vernier here on VAF you'll find a thread or two that mention it.

I don't know what other formation courses are like, but I have to say that the one i've been to twice has been very laid back, and low pressure. The flying was challenging, but not difficult. It's just another skill to be learned, and if you can make nice landings in your RV most of the time you've probably got the fine motor skills to fly formation too.

Give it a try, you'll probably have a lot of fun!

[fehdxl]

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer

I know three (3) RV guys that have FAST cards but the Warbirds for the most part want nothing to do with RVs from my experience. (or at least they want nothing to do with me) I have flown with two (2) RV guys that have FAST cards and both will adjust to the FFI RV Supplement when we fly together.

Just as a counter viewpoint, I found FFI didn't want anything to do with me (as a Bonanza guy) and that FAST was easy to work with. For example, I never could find a listing of FFI check-pilots? With FAST, I click here: http://www.flyfast.org/check_pilots. In the end, both FFI and FAST get you to the same place and it's up to lead to brief the standards, either in written or verbal form.

FWIW, I believe the Mooney Caravan folks are working with FAST...so maybe times are-a-changin' wrt to the warbirds only history.

Fly safe,

-Jim

[fehdxl]

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer

FFI also has Bonanzas and Grumman aircraft in addition to RVs that fly formation with FFI cards. I know that the Bonanzas have their own flight supplement but do not know a lot about the Grumman guys. I am not aware about any FAST supplement for RVs.

What's interesting is the Bonanza supplement you referenced is a supplement to the T-34 manual, and the T-34 association is a signatory to FAST not FFI.

As far as I can tell, FFI has standards, but does not have a formation manual/guide. Whereas the FAST Formation Guide is very comprehensive and IMHO the T-34 manual, while an quick read, has a lot to be desired.

-Jim

[ronschreck]

HERE is the latest edition of the FFI RV Formation Guidelines and Standard Procedures. This document is now used for all FFI training programs. The T-34 Formation Manual is no longer used by FFI. I see nothing wrong with pilots learning formation flying without attending a clinic but suggest they refer to the FFI manual so they learn the standards in use by the vast majority of RV formation pilots. Regarding "informal" formation training... This is serious business and deserves intensive training and practice in order to do it safely. If you cannot devote that amount of effort to it, I suggest you not participate. For those willing to devote the time to do it right, I think you will be rewarded with the knowledge required to formate safely and will take great pride in the skills you will develope. Being "in" and rock solid is the goal. Anything less is just a gaggle.

[rvmills]

Thanks for posting that Smokey! Its a great product, and the result of a huge amount of work on Jim "Gringo" Gray's part (VAF's N747JG).

For the FAST/FFI discussion (and I purposefully didn't say FAST vs FFI ), as a card holder in both organizations, I'd say there are far more similarities than differences. I'm presenting the FAST ground school to the Sport Class Racing pilots (my connection to FAST) at the Pylon Racing Seminar in June, and having just completed our WCFC, I'd say the similarities run throughout the programs. Makes sense, since FFI was built on the same foundation as FAST.

FAST has many signatories (as has been mentioned), and they all originally adopted the T-34 Manual as the standard as they merged their standardization efforts. The 4-part FAST Formation Guideline was developed from that and other documents.

FFI also adopted the T-34 Manual as the standard, to support and continue standardization among formation flying community members. An RV Supplement to the T-34 Manual was developed for use by the RV community. The documant that Smokey posted now combines all the above, and is a great formation SOP, IMHO. As Smokey said, anyone wanting to fly their RV's in formation safely and well would benefit greatly from that SOP.

Mandatory? No (unless you want to fly in one of our clinics, or earn an FFI card).

A heckuva great resource? You-betcha!

We beat this drum becaue its all about safety, trust and predictability.

I know guys like Ken (a military test pilot with formal formation training) and his buds fly formation to very high standards, as do many other RV pilots. For guys like "Buggsy2" Bob (the OP), with no formal form training, groups like the Ravens and many others around the country offer a great way to train to high standards, even if an FFI card is not sought. We don't teach "formation light", but there are levels and a progression, so its not just getting tossed in the pool...better to learn "formation right", one step at a time...whether that be to FFI standards, FAST standards, or other professional standards (being triple redundant there! )

I've been thinking about the "less intense clinic" concept, and though we had 50+ pilots and planes, and the formation flying is focused and intensive, we still have a great time and build a lot of camraderie. It's not an overly formal event, but there is a ground school, and when it comes to brief time, its time to go to work and get your game on. Our mission is to make the training safe, valuable and fun. Ask some of the Rookies that came this year...I think you'll find some pretty happy folks among that group!

So don"t be intimidated by the clinic environment at all. They are a blast, and if they weren't so much dog-gone work to organize we'd do more of them! But as I mentioned earlier, we train all year round, and welcome others to train with us. We often organize trainng hops to introduce new pilots that want to learn formation. The environment may be a bit different, but the training will essentially be the same. Both are actually great (and fun) ways to go.

I also think that once you try it, you'll realize why we say learn it well or don't do it, and you'll want to do it right (Smokey's in and rock-solid), no matter how far you pursue it. Word of caution though...before you dip your toe into the pool, ye be warned...its pretty addictive stuff!

Cheers,
Bob