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  #1  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:21 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Default The airworthiness paperwork challenge

I sent the packet to the FAA MIDO office in Minneapolis yesterday and so today I heard that, despite my slavish adherence to the EAA aircraft registration/certification step-by-step guide, I got a call today that paperwork is missing.

They wanted a copy of the aircraft registration (no biggie), they wanted another notarized affadavit of ownership (8050-88), which I'd already sent with the aircraft registration packet several weeks ago.

And I guess they didn't like the EAA's version of the letter to accompany the package, because they sent me another one to fill out.

There were some additional yes/no items to fill out on their form. This one is the most troubling:

The powerplant installation has undergone at least one hour of ground operation at various speeds from idle to full power to determine and ensure that all systems are operating properly. This time has been recorded in the aircraft log book.


I don't know how to answer this because having a full hour of ground operation goes against the recommendations of the engine manufacturer and the logbook sent me doesn't have an indication of how long Mattituck ran it.

Help!
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:30 PM
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Even if Mattituck ran it for more than 1 hour on their test stand, the phrase "engine installation" sounds like it would only refer to time on the engine once installed in the aircraft.
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  #3  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:42 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beav View Post
Even if Mattituck ran it for more than 1 hour on their test stand, the phrase "engine installation" sounds like it would only refer to time on the engine once installed in the aircraft.
I was told by everyone to limit ground runs and certainly limit full power. I just don't like the idea of running it for an hour.
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Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Blog: Letters From Flyover Country
RV-12iS Powerplant kit
N612EF Builder log (EAA Builder log)
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  #4  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:49 PM
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What happens if you check "No" for that item?

I haven't seen the form yet myself, but I'm wondering if it's like the form you fill out when you purchase a pistol where it has questions like "Have you recently been convicted of treason, murder, robbery, or crimes against humanity?" i.e. a "No" is an automatic disqualifier.

If that's the case, then you have to decide whether you wish to fly, damage your engine, or let the project sit.
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  #5  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:02 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Yeah, that's right. I'm wondering whether people who have recently submitted the yes/no form (by way of additional explanation, the EAA form combined two forms onto one-- the yes/no and the description of the flight test regimen) to Mpls MIDO can weigh in here. Or whether anyone knows if any other MIDO is using this form.

The VERY nice woman at the MIDO said it was a Minneapolis created form.

I'm going to try to get in touch with Tim Mahoney, the DAR, tonight to see what he says, and also consult Doug Weiler at the MN RV Builders Wing.
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Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Blog: Letters From Flyover Country
RV-12iS Powerplant kit
N612EF Builder log (EAA Builder log)
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Waiting for the avionics kit (backordered: chip shortage)
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  #6  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry View Post
The powerplant installation has undergone at least one hour of ground operation at various speeds from idle to full power to determine and ensure that all systems are operating properly. This time has been recorded in the aircraft log book.
Email Mahlon and ask him for the record of the test cell run. It documents more than an hour, the power settings, temps, etc. Stick that in the logbook.

If you run it for an hour on the ground in its present condition, you can pretty much count on glazing the cylinders

Dan
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Last edited by DanBaier : 04-24-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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  #7  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:55 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Will do.

BTW, they also want another 8050-88 submitted (the affidavit of ownership). I sent that down to Oklahoma City a few weeks ago when I applied for the registration, which is necessary to begin this part of the certification process.

Guess what goes with the 8050-88? An original bill of sale from Van's.

Guess what -- technically -- is supposed to go with this latest 8050-88? An original bill of sale from Van's.

Oh, by the way, this mostly pertains to another thread on picking out an engine. In the time it took me to write this post, Mahlon Russell had sent me a pdf copy of the tell cell run.
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Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Blog: Letters From Flyover Country
RV-12iS Powerplant kit
N612EF Builder log (EAA Builder log)
Last article: "Gonna Finish This Sucker" (Kitplanes)
Waiting for the avionics kit (backordered: chip shortage)

Last edited by LettersFromFlyoverCountry : 04-24-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:25 PM
alpinelakespilot2000 alpinelakespilot2000 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBaier View Post
If you run it for an hour on the ground in its present condition, you can pretty much count on glazing the cylinders
A bit of thread drift, but thought this might be helpful to others at this stage and it may or may not be helpful to Bob if he is unsuccessful in getting his MIDO requirements modified...

There are some great engine break-in/operation suggestions from Mahlon Russell under the Tech Advice tab of the Mattituck website. http://www.mattituck.com/ In particular, he argues against the traditional notion that ground running is bad. In short, and to very loosely paraphrase, you just need to make sure that ground runs don't last longer than 10 minutes or let CHT's get above 350F. Lots of other good reading too.

From the FAQ page under the Tech Advice Tab:
"Do I need extra test cell run time on my new TMX experimental engine to prevent cylinder glazing during my ground testing phase?

There is an article on "Engine Break In" on our website that explains, in laymen's terms, what is actually happening during this phase of the engine's life. It is located at http://www.mattituck.com under the Tech Advice link on the left and is entitled "Engine Break In". It would be best to read that article before proceeding with reading the rest of this, but if that isn't possible, the article, in a nutshell, explains that engine break in, is all about seating the piston rings to the cylinder walls and that the main deterrent, to this process, is heat build up at the ring to cylinder wall interface.

Knowing this crucial information allows us to make practical decisions regarding ground runs and flight profiles from the new or newly overhauled engine point of view.

To put it simply, if we get the ring to cylinder interface too hot from too hard of running, lack of cooling or another reason we will glaze the cylinder walls and prevent actual break in from occurring. Because, we are dealing with multiple independent cylinders on the engine, these conditions can happen to one cylinder, all cylinders or anything in between on the same engine. So our job above all other aspect of engine operation during the break in phase, is to keep the cylinder's as cool as possible. If we do this we will not have any problems or issues with the engine as far as break in goes. During any and all ground runs we should limit the duration and actual temps we encounter to prevent glazing from happening. We tell our customers to keep all ground runs less than 10 minutes. Don't run the engine above 2000 RPM unless you are doing a momentary full power check, high speed taxi tests or actual take off runs.

If the CHT goes above 350*F or the oil temp goes above 180*F at any point during the 10 minute max duration ground run, or at the expiration of the ten minute time limit, that run should be terminated. Then, park the aircraft faced into the wind and allow the engine to cool, until you can place your hand on the cylinder heads and barrels for 5 seconds without hurting or burning you hand and the cylinders feel relatively cool to the touch. After the engine has cooled, continue with the last run where you left off. Obviously, from what we have learned about temperature, running the engine more conservatively will not cause any problems and may even help the break in process but operating within these restrictions, on the ground, should prevent any glazing issues. These limitations apply to an engine that has had a test cell run before any ground runs are attempted. If your engine hasn't had any test cell time, then I can supply you with a ground run schedule, to replace the test cell run, which can be performed on the aircraft. If you want or need that information, just email me privately and I would be happy to send it along.

When it comes time to fly the aircraft, once again we want to observe the ground run rules, for taxi and warm up. Once we are ready to fly, we want to use full power for take off and initial climb and then we want to reduce power to climb power(normally around 85%) until we reach a safe altitude above the airport. Keep the climbs, as flat as possible, to maintain as much cooling as possible. Remember that heat is our major enemy and we can control that with climb speed. After establishing an appropriate altitude, reduce power to 65% to 75% (preferably 75 % if speed restrictions will allow it). If we see temps, exceeding 15% of our ground run limitations, in initial flights, we should reduce power to control those temps and land the aircraft. Then, double check all cooling associated equipment, repair as necessary if you find a defect, let the engine cool off and fly it again, taking up from where you left off, observing the same restrictions. The first flight shouldn't be any longer than 10 or 15 minutes maximum, even with good cooling that would allow a longer flight. The first flight is a "test flight" and after landing you should do a through visual inspection of the engine and its installation, for leaks and any other operational issues like interference fits that showed up under power, chafing of lines etc. After the first flight issues are checked, we are ready for further flights under the same ground run and flight restriction's we have been observing. The key issue once again is heat. If we control the heat by power setting, airspeed, step climbing or any other means at our disposal we will not glaze the cylinders and we will successfully break the engine in. If we operate the engine at too low of a power setting, to seat the rings, we will not harm the engine or the eventual break in process, unless we develop enough heat to glaze the cylinders. In another words, operation at a low power setting, isn't a deterrent for break in unless we have the heat. The amount of physical time we spend, at too low of a power setting to accomplish ring seating, does increase the available amount of engine operational time, that we could glaze the cylinders from excessive heat but it will not directly cause that heat unless there is something wrong or we screw up. The low power operation, without the heat, doesn't hurt anything; it is just wasted operational time, as far as, break in goes. To put it simply, if we ran the engine for 10 hours at 50% power it is unlikely that we would break the rings in, due to the low BMEP, but it is also unlikely that we would glaze the cylinders if we didn't get the engine and cylinders too hot.

If we then operated the engine at 75% power for ten hours we would have the same chance of breaking the engine in successfully as we had before the ten hours at 50% power. But we have to understand, that ten hours at 50 % power is ten hours of, extra, wasted from a break in stand point, operational time where we could do something to cause the excessive heat, that causes glazing, if we weren't paying attention. That is the only risk of low power operation as far as break in is concerned.

If you look at this scenario, you can understand how anyone is able to run an engine, in a test cell for extended periods, when we have new rings. It is because, in a test cell, we can control the cooling and if for some reason we can't, we terminate the runs in the cell to prevent glazing just like you should in the aircraft. If you control the cooling by limiting run duration or max temps encountered, with the engine installed on the aircraft, you are able to run the same as if the engine were in a test cell. Thus, extra cell time, on a new engine, isn't really necessary to prevent glazing.
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  #9  
Old 04-24-2012, 03:39 PM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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The risk of glazing -- even if it's the ONLY risk -- is enough to discourage me from driving around on the taxiways just to say I did it for the one hour. I think he makes a proper point when he notes that this is WASTED time. Yeah, you could do it, but what is the point other than to say you did it? From a flight testing point of view, I don't see where it tells you anything about your plane's ability to fly and your engine to stay lit once you firewall it.
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Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Blog: Letters From Flyover Country
RV-12iS Powerplant kit
N612EF Builder log (EAA Builder log)
Last article: "Gonna Finish This Sucker" (Kitplanes)
Waiting for the avionics kit (backordered: chip shortage)
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  #10  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:01 PM
alpinelakespilot2000 alpinelakespilot2000 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry View Post
Yeah, you could do it, but what is the point other than to say you did it?
I agree with you, Bob, inasmuch as preventing cylinder glazing in of utmost priority.

At the same, while I originally was also paranoid about having any more than a couple minutes of ground time, I have been swayed by the arguments of people like Paul Dye who have argued for more ground run. In my case, I've found that a very quick run did not give me time to do things like check the accuracy of all engine instrumentation, be sure that I didn't have any leaks, be sure I had conditioned my brake pads, do a bit of taxi testing, make sure my engine would run off both tanks, adjust my comm radio to ensure it was clear (when the engine was running, not just when engine was off), etc. All of these things, and more, are central to the success and safety of the eventual first flight, so I don't see it as "wasted" time. Some pilots may be able to handle all of this in the couple minutes it takes to taxi from the hangar to the runup area for first flight. I'm not ashamed to say that I am not. I was surprised how consumed I was during the first engine run or two. Concerned as I was about the health of the engine, I felt as taxed as as I've ever been in flight. So, again, I don't see a little bit of extra ground time as necessarily wasted time. True, Mahlon noted that it might be wasted from the perspective of engine break-in, but I read his comments in a more positive light: that of him giving permission to do all of these little checks if we feel they are helpful in making that first flight safely.

Again, whether you need a full hour of it, or time at full-power settings, I agree might be either counterproductive or at least wasted, so it is worth challenging the MIDO request in that regard. Also again, I apologize if I've contributed to any thread drift, but I do think it is relevant, even if only a product of my relatively uninformed opinion.
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Last edited by alpinelakespilot2000 : 04-24-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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