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  #41  
Old 04-18-2012, 02:52 AM
RV10inOz's Avatar
RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
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Yep, all said and done painted and trimmed etc....Andrew's estimate is right on the money with our actuals.

now we did the avionics in house but had some pro help elsewhere, so that is a cost some folk do not factor in either.

I can tell you though, after 600 hours on the clock.....we regret NOTHING!
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  #42  
Old 04-18-2012, 08:22 AM
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johngoodman johngoodman is offline
 
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$179,513.77

That includes the Avery Tool Kit for the RV-10 that I bought immediately after leaving Van's booth at 2006 Sun 'n fun. It also includes Sean's fabulous 180 degree door handle modification. It does not include the toys I bought later, such as belt sanders, drill press, and fun stuff from Harbor Freight. The figure above is direct purchases for the airplane.

By the way, you will have some State Taxes and fees to pay - whether you like it or not. In Georgia, I pay an annual ad valorem tax on the airplane that is the same rate as a home that costs the same. The Georgia Sales Tax people also caught up with me on unpaid sales tax for stuff purchased out of state, such as the kit. They simply wait for you to show up in the FAA aircraft database, and track you down.

Insurance and a hangar cost me about $500 a month. Then there are the Hundred Dollar Hamburgers and Pancakes....

John
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  #43  
Old 04-24-2012, 08:59 AM
TimO TimO is offline
 
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I've seen some great posts in this thread, especially a recent one by Bob Barrows. I get emails all the time from people wanting to build a -10. Everyone knows it's a dream plane and wants one. But, I feel that while adding another builder to the list and the camaraderie of the built is nice, what is even nicer to that individual is ensuring that they have a realistic view of the financial committment they make when they start the kit. How would you feel if your best buddies talked you in to buying a sports car to be in their car club, and you KNEW it would be a blast, but you were right on the edge financially. Then you a) lose your job, or b) have some other unfortunate life event, and end up bankrupt and lose your beautiful car? That's the reality of how it is these days. So my advice is to treat the airplane as a complete luxury...something that if you lost ALL of your investment into it, would not break you financially, and you could live with that. If you can, and it's all discretionary income you're spending, then great....go for it. We need more active pilots and more RV builders. But, we need more active pilots MORE than we need more RV builders...so if you are not in a position to build an RV-10 that costs more than the house I live in, take up aviating in some other plane. I could have owned a nice certified plane for the price of my RV-10, and prepaid my maintenance for the rest of my life most likely. No, it wouldn't be as nice as my RV-10, and I'm fortunate to have been able to build what I did. I'm glad I did it. But, you can't look at a kit as being a cost-saving way to fly or you will be disappointed.

Rest assured that after you complete the build, your costs will not end. Every year you will spend money on things you didn't anticipate. Most builders don't even anticipate the FLYOFF costs to get the thing out of Phase 1...you're going to spend $5/gal * 13gph * 25-40 hours just to get it fueled for the flyoff, and another $3000ish the week before you start, to insure the kit. And once you get it flown off, you'll want to use it continuously to keep the rust out of both you and your plane. I'm sure many of us spend > 10,000/yr just in flying our RV-10's. So Bob's right...the new builder doesn't know what he doesn't know, and helping shine the light on that isn't negative...you're doing it because you actually care about the person and their financial future. We *should* go into it with some fear and trepidation...it's what keeps us from doing stupid things that we are incapable of completing.

Even the comments about the marital issues have some relevance, even if they are tongue-in-cheek. You can be assured that when you start a kit, wether it takes as long as you expected or not to complete it, it will FEEL like it takes a long, long, looooong time. While it may be hard to burn yourself out if you're highly motivated, you will far more easily cause your family to be tired of the process if they don't have your same level of motivation. So you really DO need to spend some time, and money, on things for the family. We put off so many things that one of the duties I had after finishing was also paying for some other improvements and items that I had pushed off while I built.


So enough rambling for me, but I really view this as an issue where the person really has to come first. If someone is your friend, you'd want them to make good financial and personal choices, not rash decisions based on a hot desire for an awesome plane. If in the end they can justify the 100% recreational spending of >$150,000, and a committment to about $10,000/yr towards their flying after building, then encourage them, help them get started, and support them along the way. If they can't justify it, help them move into aviation in something they CAN do. Even if they buy a tired old 172, they'll be flying and supporting our cause, and they will have some cash tied up that will provide a good nest egg for them when they need to bankroll their IO-540 along the way....which they can sell their 172 to pay for. Better to save up the cash until you have >50% saved, and THEN start the kit. Trust me, if you are a HIGHLY MOTIVATED builder, you can finish a -10 in 2-3 years....and you don't want to run out of cash during the build because that can turn you into an unmotivated builder. For those that find their way through to the end, the rewards are truly better than they could ever imagine, and more than they can effectively express.

Tim
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  #44  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:39 AM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimO View Post
So my advice is to treat the airplane as a complete luxury...something that if you lost ALL of your investment into it, would not break you financially, and you could live with that. If you can, and it's all discretionary income you're spending, then great....go for it.

Tim
Tim, that was a fantastic post, should be required reading for all prospective builders.

Thanks!
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  #45  
Old 04-24-2012, 01:35 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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I agree with Tim 100%. It may sound harsh, but, unless a perspective builder has on-hand $150K + that they could live without, they should think twice about starting a project like this.
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  #46  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:08 PM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Default Great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
Tim, that was a fantastic post, should be required reading for all prospective builders.

Thanks!
+1 with Sam B. Great post.

Thanks,
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RV-10, 510 TT
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It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
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  #47  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:57 PM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Tim....INDEED!!

I get a bit short, and some may say harsh about the realities of life, and I have a saying that we use at work all the time..... "It is what it is!"

Considering the original question was for an RV10 downunder, and 2012 prices not 2006, adding freight insurance and then local GST.....if you are down here plan on $220+K, sure $180K is possible bare basic and used engines etc. But the facts remain.

I am glad you mention operating costs in your post, as you say, they get forgotten, and it is not just fuel.

The TOTAL cost of operating, from fuel to Jepps, renewals and cost of capital, for us is $225/hr.

Yes this is true and we fly 220hrs + a year. Even if you take off a small portion for our higher fuel costs and some other things, I reckon the numbers for the typical -10 owner is not less than $175-180/hr.

Factor in hangarage, even if you own it or it is on your property, there is a cost. Medicals, charts, database updates, tools here and there, headset or two every so often. Cost of capital, how much would you have earned if you had that $200k invested, or how much are you paying in interest. If you own the plane outright but have a $200k mortage on your house....that interest is really due to your plane, so count that.

Now do not let your wife see you working this out

As Tim says, this is discressionary spending. And this is the problem the world has at the moment, too many people forgot what that means.

Anyone else game to honestly run the numbers.

Great post as always Tim!
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2012, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz View Post
If you own the plane outright but have a $200k mortage on your house....that interest is really due to your plane, so count that.
I'm not going to comment on this. I'm just going to quote it and leave it out there as a bit of financial reality that pretty much all of the aircraft owners I ever talk to seem to forget

- mark
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  #49  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:52 PM
TimO TimO is offline
 
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Thanks guys...
Regarding operating costs here in the U.S., I guess we have it pretty lucky. The last time I looked which was admittedly a couple years ago, I was right around $125-135/hr operating costs. This includes things like engine reserve and maintenance, but not upgrades and "nice to have" additions. I don't factor in headsets and all the gizmos or anything else. Mine also will be on the low side compared to many, because I own my hangar, which in my neck of the woods a T-hangar can be had outright for about $16-17K (I paid far less, but had an unusual deal), and my ANNUAL hangar cost is only $425-475/year. I've contemplated taking a different job and moving away, but many of the places I'd go, that would be the MONTHLY cost.

The numbers for hourly operating costs are far easier to guestimate than the overall kit build cost...but I'd say most people will likely be in the $125-175/hr range depending on where they live and where they hangar and their time in type. (OMG after typing this I went back and did the math and with over 800 hours that means I've now spent over $100K just flying this darn thing)

When it comes to kit build costs, I'm still no expert, but after flying now for 6+ years, I can tell you that my initial plan was only short by $70,000 or so. After I built it, I found it very hard the first 2 or 3 years, to catch up on my savings...flying took most of my discretionary income. Last year I took a big step....I figured if I dedicated myself to saving as hard as I dedicated myself to the RV-10, I could do good things. So, I flew a little less and paid off my house. Now I'm 100% debt free and plan to stay that way. At this point I can finally get ahead a little....and I'm shifting gears and going to start shoveling it towards my much neglected retirement fund. I let other priorities take over for too long and I see that clearly now. What good is retirement if you can't fly your RV-10, right?

It's tough to maintain financial sensibility, and I certainly am guilty of taking leaps that I shouldn't have....but I can't with good conscience recommend that to any prospective builder in today's climate. It really breaks my heart when I see someone who I knew from 2003,4,5,6 that I used to see on the forums, selling their incomplete kit.

Tim
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RV-10 N104CD - Flying 2/2006 - 1400+ hours http://www.MyRV10.com
RV-14 N14YT - Flying 6/2016 - 350+ hours http://www.MyRV14.com

Last edited by TimO : 04-24-2012 at 10:21 PM.
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  #50  
Old 04-25-2012, 02:00 PM
dhmoose dhmoose is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 337
Smile Double your estimate!

Somehow, my wife seems to know how much I spend on the build...and mysteriously spends the same amount from her discretionary spending! I expect the build to cost double my original estimate!

In all seriousness, it has been difficult to spend so much on my hobby and ask my wife to hold off on her spending. A compromise must be reached that is fair to all, and that is exactly where the previous discussion of the impact of a build on ones life is coming from. It impacts everything, not just the financial side of your world. That is the reality of it...and should not be seen as a negative comment, but rather an observation, That said, I'd do it again in a heartbeat..and I'm not even flying yet.
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