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  #61  
Old 07-06-2007, 09:07 PM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MustangUSA
Mel,

Thanks for the reply... but... I am still confused then... (sorry, getting old is a b***h). What recourse then does a new prospective buyer of an existing, previously flying RV have when he wants to buy one partially disassembled, and the present owner has decertified it by removing the data plate and terminating the aircraft registration with the FAA? And one last add-on question to that... what if the person you buy it from, is not the original builder, but the 2nd or 3rd owner, and the existing owner is just paranoid of the liability aspects? What is the new buyer to do to get it legal to fly again with a new "N" number?

Enquiring minds want to know... thanks Mel.

Best Regards,

John Wanamaker
RV-7 Emp
Cuyler Airpark (FD27)
Sorry,
Once the airworthiness certificate has been surrendered, it's over! It is no longer an airplane! It is scrap aluminum or a lawn ornament. This has been tried many times over and over. There is no recourse.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
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RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #62  
Old 07-06-2007, 09:57 PM
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morlino morlino is offline
 
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Default FAR 91.7

It doesn't seem to matter who owns it, who built it, who does the maintenance, or what the nature of the problem was... The pilot is ultimately responsible. Am I missing something?

Sec. 91.7
Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.
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  #63  
Old 07-07-2007, 08:41 AM
xavierm xavierm is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 464
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by morlino
It doesn't seem to matter who owns it, who built it, who does the maintenance, or what the nature of the problem was... The pilot is ultimately responsible. Am I missing something?

Sec. 91.7
Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight.
Too bad it isn't that simple. In our sue happy society, the hopes of getting rich with little effort askew the obvious.

Flying into rapidly rising terrain, and impacting the mountain causes the next of kin to sue the aircraft manufacturer for not making an airplane that can out-climb a mountain. Crashing and burning because of water in the tanks causes Piper to be sued because they stuck an engine on the airplane that can't run on water (the last happened, thats the summary of it, don't know the outcome).

We builders' and pilots' are a small niche. The challenge is to convince a group of 12 people who, most likely, have no experience with/in aviation other than hoping on an airline flight to be whisked off to their next vacation spot.

If you sell your airplane CYA as much as you can. You most likely can't cover every possible scenario.
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  #64  
Old 07-07-2007, 10:13 AM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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Location: St. Paul, MN.
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Without wading into the age old debate on lawyers and the legal system, I'm still trying to ascertain just how big a problem suits against RV builders really is.

In looking over the NTSB reports, (or at least the daily FAA update), I see RVs going down that obviously weren't built by the pilot who perished or who had an accident.

But I'm not seeing evidence that there are RV builders who are being challenged in court cases. I presume there are some, but how many? One? Five? 100?

I agree a transfer of an RV needs to protect the seller as much as legally possible, but I have absolutely no sense of the extent of risk that's involved, that's supported by evidence or math.
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St. Paul, MN.
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  #65  
Old 07-07-2007, 10:38 AM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Default Asset protection

This is a never-ending story. It is further complicated by a number of variables: manufacture responsibility, assembler responsibility, maintenance responsibility, weather factors, negligence, state in which incident occurred, liability release, lawyer's skills, who has deep(est) pocket, judge properly medicated, jury awake, etc... There are no guarantees. But money is usually the bottom line before any legal issues are really going to be addressed: who has the deepest pocket? No pocket deep enough, sharks probably swim away. So make yourself unpalatable for the sharks and they may not want to even try to bite you. Get yourself some knowledgeable protection in the form of release that fits your circumstances, not the walmart shelf one-size-fits-all kind. Make yourself as judgement-proof as you can with protection of your ASSETS, e.g., LLC or Corp, etc. (not a partnership or any legal entity that permits creditors to reach your assets).
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  #66  
Old 07-07-2007, 02:44 PM
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L'Avion L'Avion is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Memphis
Posts: 159
Default Registering as a corporation

For the jailhouse lawyers out there:

What if an aircraft is registered to a corporation, and is not sold as such, but the shares in the corporation are all sold to another individual,and the keys to the aircraft are passed to the new shareholder? No aircraft was sold or purchased, just shares in a corporation, such as: N000RV, Inc.
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  #67  
Old 07-07-2007, 04:31 PM
ptrotter ptrotter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sussex, NJ
Posts: 309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L'Avion
For the jailhouse lawyers out there:

What if an aircraft is registered to a corporation, and is not sold as such, but the shares in the corporation are all sold to another individual,and the keys to the aircraft are passed to the new shareholder? No aircraft was sold or purchased, just shares in a corporation, such as: N000RV, Inc.
I doubt if that would make any difference. It is the manufacturer that is really on the hook more so than the registered owner, and if you built it, then you are the manufacturer, not the corporation.
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RV-8 82080 Finish/FWF Kit
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  #68  
Old 07-07-2007, 06:33 PM
skelrad skelrad is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Issaquah, WA
Posts: 146
Default Be a Corporation Employee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptrotter
I doubt if that would make any difference. It is the manufacturer that is really on the hook more so than the registered owner, and if you built it, then you are the manufacturer, not the corporation.
I'm not sure if you can do this, but can you create a corporation and simply employ yourself as the aircraft builder? When you sell the airplane, you close down the corporation. As an owner, your assets are protected, and as an employee, my guess is the corporation is ultimately responsible for your actions. I've never heard of someone suing a Cessna employee for a bad build job, but they'll go after the company who employs the builder (whether that's because that's where the money is or that's the only legal path they can take, I don't know). If you close down the corporation after the sale, what is there for the buyer to go after?

I obviously have no idea if you can structure it this way, but I've often wondered if this is a possibility.

Brandon
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  #69  
Old 07-07-2007, 07:55 PM
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Steve Ashby Steve Ashby is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stone Mountain, Georgia
Posts: 483
Default A Corporation only goes so far

Sorry guys, Incorporating your aircraft will only take you so far. If it was your negligence that made the ship crash, then you are liable, even it the aircraft is owned by a corporation. Again, every situation is different. You can take definite steps to minimize your liability, but you cannot erase responsibility for a consequence proximately caused (a legal word there) by your negligence. Check with your own aviation attorney, your mileage may vary.
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Stone Mountain, GA
N184RW (reserved)
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  #70  
Old 07-07-2007, 08:19 PM
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Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
Default Builder negligence...how common ?

My guess is that close to 100% of RV accidents are due to pilot error.
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