Shoot or buck

[TShort]

I'm getting close to lots of riveting on the wings and am wondering what you all think is the best job for inexperienced riveters (like neighbors and non RV friends). Hopefully I'll be able to get like minded people to help with most, but there will be some occasions where I may need help from someone whose never riveted before.
Whaddya think - shoot or buck?

Thomas
-8 wings

[rv8ch]

I've got a QB, so I didn't need much help, and I don't have a lot of experience. However, I have spoken to a lot of people with decades of experience, and they seemed to agree that bucking is the more "skilled" task.

The key is to have a system of clear communication so that the shooter does not pull the trigger before the bucker is ready. This is the one they taught at Alexander Technical Center (if I recall it correctly):

1) shooter inserts rivet, places gun on rivet, and says "ready"

2) bucker places bucking bar on shop head, and says "set"

3) shooter rivets

4) bucker inspects and says "good" if it's ok. If not, he gives some indication of how many more "taps" are needed.

The things I like about this system are that the bucker is constantly giving the positive feedback to the shooter, is doing the inspections, and is generally setting the pace.

Obviously you want to make sure the shooter gets a bit of training before driving any rivets in very visible places.

[Rick6a]

Originally Posted by TShort

...........what you all think is the best job for inexperienced riveters (like neighbors and non RV friends).......there will be some occasions where I may need help from someone whose never riveted before...Whaddya think - shoot or buck?...

Thomas,

Conventional bucking requires more finesse (and often more pain tolerance) than shooting. In the production environment you would likely find that when polled, 95% would much prefer to shoot. Why? Because it is the bucker who has to scrunch up in often restrictive and uncomfortabe environments and go through all sorts of hand and body contortions to do the job. The shooter on the other hand simply has to stand or sit on the opposite side of the work and wait for the signal to proceed. In practice, it is the bucker who is responsible to let the shooter know if the rivet is properly set. In loud, blind production situations, this has traditionally been communicated by the bucker tapping the skin TWICE if the shooter is to move on to the next rivet or ONCE if the rivet needs more attention.
But, in the quieter homebuilding world of .032 and thinner skins, ......do you really trust an untested and inexperienced helper to not dent your precious wing or fuselage skin with a wayward rivet gun? To get around this conundrum, I often had a (sometimes less than deft) helper simply press a substantial bucking bar against the rivet heads while I moved to the opposite side of the wing or crawled inside the fuselage and shot the rivets. This is just another variation of backriveting and might serve you well.

[Baseball Dad]

I would try to find another builder close by and trade off some help with him. Check with your local EAA chapter. My wife helped me with some riveting and it caused a lot of stress. For one thing she's not very strong and it takes consistent pressure from the shooter and bucker to get nice rivets.

I don't have a lot of experience this is just my observation.

[TShort]

I do have several other local builders and several pilot friends who are (now ! ) experienced at bucking.
I'm just looking ahead to those times when none are available and I want to do some work. Probably won't happen, as I don't want any smilies or dents on my skins - and I would hate for someone to have to feel like they screwed something up. Rather do that myself

Thomas
-8 wings

[rvbuilder2002]

I use back riveting whenever possible. With experience it will produce a better finish quality than you can get with any other method.
When I can't back rivet (bottom skins on wings, etc.) and particularly when I must use inexpereinced help, I use a swivel head rivet set on the gun.
This allows for slight misalignment of the gun from perpedicular to the skin surface to prevent smilies.
One word of caution about the swivle head rivet set (and one thing that causes many builders to dislike them because the don't realise the problem).
The rubber cup on the set that is meant to keep it from walking/sliding across the skin is too stiff and will cause the set to sit up off the skin surface unless you push very hard on the rivet gun. This can be corrected by feathering down the thickness at the edge using a disc sander.

Teach the helper to place the set dierectly centered over the rivet, rest the palm of their left hand (if they are right handed) beside the rivet set and hold the rubber cup portion of the set with their thumb and index finger so that it wont move. Hold the gun and pull the trigger using the right hand. Align the rivet gun with its reflection in the skin.

If this process is used it is nearly impossible for the shooter to mess up. The bucker, thats another story...

[RV8RIVETER]

Let me begin by saying I would only let inexperienced "helpers" shoot FLUSH rivets. With a swivel flush set shooting is pretty much a no brainer as long as you have good communication with the "bucker". My wife, who is borderline afraid of any tool not a screwdriver, had no problems helping me shoot a few rivets. IMHO bucking takes more skill.