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12-23-2011, 09:19 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 571
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Ahhh... okay.. 'High Key', I understand.
It's interesting to me the degree to which 'standard' practices in flying instruction change over time. At our little airport in SC, there is a division in pattern flying between the guys who learned to fly years ago and those who got their licenses more recently. Most of the pilots who've been flying longer, fly tighter, higher patterns as protection against landing off-airport in case of engine failure. More recent guys were all taught by their instructors that engine failure is statistically unlikely but that pilot error during landing is not (mismanagement of flaps, gear, carb heat, prop, etc.) and that its safer to fly a wide and deep pattern to ensure sufficient time to conclude your landing checklist in detail and 'settle in' during the approach, than it is to be rushed in a high and tight pattern and perhaps miss something important.
It's fascinating to observe the poorly veiled (but good natured) contempt each group has for the other. The first sees the latter as thinking they must be flying B-52's and the other sees the first as a bunch of kamikazi's! The first group thinks nothing of being high on final and slipping big time when they've got the field made and the other apparently sees aggressive slipping to be tantamount to aerobatics in the pattern!
The high key/low key discussion fits reasonably well within this framework. At my airport at least, the first group clearly has a feel for the concept while the latter seems intuitively opposed and committed to the 'straight ahead' strategy, at least as regards engine loss in the pattern. It seems to have less to do with age and variety of flight experience than it does with when each pilot got their training. Some of this phenomena may reflect back on the takeoff 'turn-back' topic under discussion as well.
Lee...
P.S. The high key for the F-4 was 10,500', 215 knots, gear down and flaps up. Low key was 6,000'. Flaps down rolling out and flare initiation at 500'. Imagine losing six thousand feet in a 180 degree turn to final---had to be quite a ride!
__________________
Lee Logan
Ridgeland, SC (3J1)
F1 Rocket #160 flying
Last edited by logansc : 12-23-2011 at 09:22 AM.
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12-23-2011, 10:01 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Port St Lucie, FL
Posts: 261
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Training and practice is everything when you have a major emergency, I know this from personal experience.
A part of my scan on every takeoff, once I am past the point of landing straight ahead on the runway, is where I would go if the engine failed. I am fairly certain I would instinctively head for the nearest clear area, unless I was at pattern altitude or very close. After a power loss during climbout, your airspeed will drop off very rapidly unless you get the nose down quickly, I have taught and practiced this with many students, in airplanes that don't glide worth a ****.
If you fly those huge patterns instead of keeping it close in and doing as many power off landings as you can, you are doing yourself a real disservice. The sink rate, even in a spam can, in a power off situation when you are close to the ground may seem quite scary to someone who does not regularly practice full power off landings from downwind. In my experience most of those unfamiliar with this tend to want to pull back on the yoke way too early because of this.
I don't buy for a second the argument that a long slow approach is safer, for many reasons. I will say if you cannot routinely land your airplane from downwind with full power off, and easily stay ahead of the airplane without feeling rushed, you have no business taking up passengers until you can. It's not hard, it just takes practice.
Fortunately, like the acro planes I am used to flying, RV's have excellent power to weight ratios, and the time period between having to land straight ahead and being at a safe (for me) altitude to turn back, is very short.
And I think everyone should do what the OP is saying here, go out and practice this stuff in your plane, learn it, get to know your plane so you know without a doubt what it and you are really capable of and comfortable with. That's what being a "good stick" is all about.
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12-23-2011, 10:08 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
Everyone decides where to put the risk bar for themselves. If you are solo - it's up to you. If you are not alone...Do your passengers have the same INFORMED choice?Paul
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The cockpit (or mine anyway) is not a democracy. No time to poll the pax, debate the merits, and settle on a compromise during a T/O engine out. The PIC is in COMMAND and makes the decision, period. Time and altitude permitting good Crew Resource Management (CRM) certainly involves a great deal of collaborative Decision Making, Assertiveness, Mission Analysis, Communication, Leadership, Adaptability, and Situational Awareness (DAMCLAS - apologies to my Navy brothers for the CRM class - sign yourself off for annual refresher training). Otherwise the pax along for the joy ride needs to listen and follow orders.
.01
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12-23-2011, 06:30 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999
DAMCLAS - apologies to my Navy brothers...
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Or SADCLAM. 
__________________
RV-7 Flying since 2004
1,100 hrs+
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12-24-2011, 07:39 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRTS
Posts: 1,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999
The cockpit (or mine anyway) is not a democracy. No time to poll the pax, debate the merits, and settle on a compromise during a T/O engine out. The PIC is in COMMAND and makes the decision, period. Time and altitude permitting good Crew Resource Management (CRM) certainly involves a great deal of collaborative Decision Making, Assertiveness, Mission Analysis, Communication, Leadership, Adaptability, and Situational Awareness (DAMCLAS - apologies to my Navy brothers for the CRM class - sign yourself off for annual refresher training). Otherwise the pax along for the joy ride needs to listen and follow orders.
.01
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Can you fwd me the paperwork? 
__________________
Next?, TBD
IAR-823, SOLD
RV-8, SOLD
RV-7, SOLD
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12-24-2011, 10:54 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig600
Can you fwd me the paperwork? 
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I'll copy mine and fax it to you. Even though I'm retired I believe the CRM facilitator qual is good for 1 year
Keep your head down!
Spank
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12-24-2011, 10:55 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobinbasford
Or SADCLAM. 
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Yeah that works too and was the original... 
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12-25-2011, 03:39 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRTS
Posts: 1,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999
I'll copy mine and fax it to you. Even though I'm retired I believe the CRM facilitator qual is good for 1 year
Keep your head down!
Spank
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Oh, we got some Christmas eve gifts.
__________________
Next?, TBD
IAR-823, SOLD
RV-8, SOLD
RV-7, SOLD
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12-25-2011, 09:18 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre smith
Lee, basically, it's the altitude you should have on downwind, across from the threshold, power off, that'll allow you to do a 180 degree approach to a landing. I can do that from 800' in the -10, using flaps as needed..no power.
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Pierre i did engine out practice for the first time in my -10 as well. In the pattern, 75% gross weight, 1000 AGL, abeam numbers, power idle, i had 1 or 2 seconds to turn directly to the runway to BARELY make the runway, let alone 1/3 of the runway. That was a shocker! I was surprised the sinkrate seemed much higher than a C182 i had recently flown.
I was quite surprised at how little margin i had to make the runway. Anything more than 45% bank, land short. 3 second delay to react, land short. I have a lot more practicing to do!
Jae
__________________
#40533 RV-10 Builder and CFI
1/2006 Started build
10/19/2011 First flight
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12-25-2011, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,167
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I did some engine out work yesterday also. I could land from my normal pattern position. I had to keep the flaps up until short final. They really make a difference on the 6. I left the prop as set at 2700 RPM. I am hoping this offsets the effects of a actual stopped engine. In the real world of course you would get the prop control out for minimum drag. I wonder if anyone has some data on that point. Engine at idle verses a actual shutdown verses prop setting on a CS equipped aircraft.
George
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