automobile engines for the RV-10

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by aerhed

Truth be told, I still think you'd be better off putting a 540 in a car than a car motor in an RV-10.

Maybe not. Since an O-540 is air cooled, you would likely have major overheating issues.

Count me as one as skeptical of most auto conversions in aircraft. I surely would NEVER buy a plane with an auto engine in it.

But it is your choice.

[aerhed]

Since an O-540 is air cooled, you would likely have major overheating issues.

Then you pull over and have a beer. You just know anyone who'd put a 540 in a car also has beer.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by aerhed

Truth be told, I still think you'd be better off putting a 540 in a car than a car motor in an RV-10. Starting with Model A motors in Funk's, etc. to this day, the only really successful car engines have been VW conversions. Too bad they're so tiny. I'd think of it as really only for the experimental value as opposed to flying practicality. Nothing wrong with that.
Now, if you wanted to build a tri-motor 10 with 3 revmasters, that would be somethin'! Not sure what, but somethin'!

Actually there are many, many Subarus flying successfully (a bunch that have had problems too) plus Suzukis (3, 4 and 6 cylinder), Honda V6s, Corvairs, the before mentioned LS in Seabees, Rover V8s and a handful of others. The engine is usually not the problem at all if left essentially stock.

Titan Aircraft approves and endorses both the Suzuki and Honda V6s for their T-51 replicas and they have sold a lot of these with a lot flying now. When people couple these engines up to proven gearboxes (there are a few good ones out there) and do proper wiring and fuel systems, they are generally having good success with them. It's just that many people outside the loop don't know much about these things.

[aerhed]

generally having good success with them.

I agree. That makes them good enough for real experimenters, but maybe not so good for the "average kit builder". Nobody can argue that the failure rate for auto conversions is way higher than for Lycomings and there's quite a bit of catching up left to do. Look how many engines have been tried and they are still a drop in the bucket. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but nobody except the VW guys have any significant numbers flying. I had a V8 zenith land on my strip a week after I graded it. He made it all the way back home too. Yay! Go Ben, go. A bunch of people have to stack a bunch of hours on a particular installation and nobody has done it yet. So many fizzlers so far it makes it even more uphill. Hardly anyone believes in them any more except guys who want to. I say try it if you want and I'll read every article that comes out on it, but I personally don't have time/money for non-standard engines.

[aerhed]

I sure wish someone would bite on the RV-10 tri-motor idea. Lets see...Rev2300 x 3 = 255hp @ 510lbs and maybe 12gph. What could be wrong with that? 3 engine redundancy, perfect for in the soup work. When you get there drop the belly pod, take out yer harley frame and bolt on one of the revmasters.

[Lars]

Originally Posted by aerhed

Then you pull over and have a beer. You just know anyone who'd put a 540 in a car also has beer.

Wow, that's a quote for a signature line if I ever saw one.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by aerhed

I agree. That makes them good enough for real experimenters, but maybe not so good for the "average kit builder". Nobody can argue that the failure rate for auto conversions is way higher than for Lycomings and there's quite a bit of catching up left to do. Look how many engines have been tried and they are still a drop in the bucket. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but nobody except the VW guys have any significant numbers flying. I had a V8 zenith land on my strip a week after I graded it. He made it all the way back home too. Yay! Go Ben, go. A bunch of people have to stack a bunch of hours on a particular installation and nobody has done it yet. So many fizzlers so far it makes it even more uphill. Hardly anyone believes in them any more except guys who want to. I say try it if you want and I'll read every article that comes out on it, but I personally don't have time/money for non-standard engines.

I agree, the overall safety record of auto conversions falls well short of traditional engines but it does not have to be that way if people would listen to those who've been doing it for a while.

I'd hazard to say after being involved in this field for close to 20 years now that Subarus of all types have at least as many flight hours on them as VWs and there are thousands flying world wide. You have to remember that several gyro manufactuers used Subaru exclusively to power their creations. I believe 2 alone count over 800 sold. One Australian gyro instructor had over 3800 hours on a single EJ22 engine without an overhaul and training is no easy life. I doubt if any VW has anywhere near that many flight hours on it and I suspect most VW aircraft are flying very short trips around the patch for the most part.

It was calculated back in 2007 or so that the RAF 2000 gyros had likely accumulated over 200,000 flight hours alone. That installation and redrive were extremely reliable because they were all done the same way and had thousands of hours of development and testing behind them. This aircraft is being made in South Africa now, still with Subaru power.

The first Subaru EA81 was installed 30 years ago so they have been flying for a long time. I know we have sold over 300 EFI systems for all types of Subaru engines flying all over the world. In my experience, about 70% of the people flying auto conversions are happy with their choice and about 30% eventually dump it and install a traditional engine if they have a choice. Something over 25% would never go back to a traditional engine and around 50% are on the fence, seeing good and bad things about both.

After all this time, we do know what works and what doesn't for the most part, unfortunately many newcomers don't listen and have problems. I think many people have a small view of this world and bad news travels faster than good news. Really, if things are working well, which is what we expect, pilots just fly their aircraft without saying much. There are lots of auto engined aircraft flying just fine all over the world with hundreds of hours on them.

I understand that many pilots would not set foot in an auto powered aircraft but I won't fly in a Lycoming powered one either over the Rockies for instance or IFR or at night (or all of the above! yikes!) because if that one engine does stop, you are essentially dead already. There are statistically enough traditional engine failures that I can't accept that risk for myself.

[aerhed]

Nice post. You win! Thanks for keeping me from getting bored.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by aerhed

Nice post. You win! Thanks for keeping me from getting bored.

Well this post made me smile too!

I think the original question was probably asking about suitable, commercially available auto FF kits being offered for the RV10. While one company was offering these packages, it is now unclear what will happen to that company following the death of the owner in a crash several months ago.

At this time, it is my opinion that there are no conversions which have enough trouble free flight time on them to warrant consideration by the average RV10 builder.

For further reading on the subject I offer a link to the excellent EPI website which explores the details in its typical no BS fashion: http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engi...iderations.htm Enjoy.

[Avenger V]

Look at today's post on RV12 site. Mandatory service bulletin for Rotax engine. This is just one of many you don't see published. How about the cooling line chafing on engine mount posted yesterday. One of the many hoses you don't have with the Honda Viking . There is something about flying behind the little, light weight Honda-Viking engine that makes me feel safe. Millions of the engines throughout the world verses thousands of Rotax. Ron Russ
N97HV RV12 flying and love it.


OTOH, like others have said, if you are truly a gearhead who likes to experiment and baby sit the engine, gearbox, electronics, and it's not just about saving $$ then go for it![/quote]