What do You Want in An Engine

[Sid Lambert]

No gear reduction

Self contained redundant electronic ignition

O2 sensor controlled fuel injection

Hydraulic and fixed prop control - automagical a plus but not absolute

180-220 HP

5-8 gph

Same weight and size as comparable Lycoming

Under $20k for firewall forward assembly

Sid Lambert
RV-7 - Wings

[N941WR]

I assume you know the risks you are taking with this venture so I won?t preach about all the failed engines, fickle engine buyers, etc. that came before.

What I want is:

1. Auto engine pricing, $5K or less. Unlikely you will get there because of production volumes.
2. Fuel burns proportional or better than current automotive reciprocating engines.
3. New technology. Give me a turbine and its inherent reliability.
4. 160 to 350 Shaft HP range of engines or ECU power limited based on the application. (RV-9?s to Bonanza?s)
5. Smaller and lighter than existing recips.
6. 3000+ hour TBO
7. Hourly maintenance costs in line with auto engines.
8. Burn auto fuel, Jet A, or anything else that will burn.
9. Use common parts: alternators, starters, etc. If possible.
10. 12 and 24 Volt options
11. Top Shelf customer service. I can understand a new engine having teething problems. What I can?t understand is the manufacture disowning those customers who supported them in their early days. Dynon and Emag are great examples of companies taking care of their customers.

Nice to haves:
1. Constant speed or fixed pitch prop. Gotta keep the price down with a PF option to get as many engines in service as you can to reduce per unit pricing.
2. Local service centers. Not likely to happen with new engines and doesn?t seem to have stopped the auto conversion guys. Although they can get parts locally.

Not required:
1. Complete FWF packages will come, no need for you to develop them.

Your biggest issue will be word of mouth support. One person with a bad experience who knows how to use a computer can destroy a great product in short order.

Best of luck!

[RVbySDI]

Originally Posted by N941WR

What I want is:

1. Auto engine pricing, $5K or less. Unlikely you will get there because of production volumes.
2. Fuel burns proportional or better than current automotive reciprocating engines.
3. New technology. Give me a turbine and its inherent reliability.
4. 160 to 350 Shaft HP range of engines or ECU power limited based on the application. (RV-9?s to Bonanza?s)
5. Smaller and lighter than existing recips.
6. 3000+ hour TBO
7. Hourly maintenance costs in line with auto engines.
8. Burn auto fuel, Jet A, or anything else that will burn.
9. Use common parts: alternators, starters, etc. If possible.
10. 12 and 24 Volt options
11. Top Shelf customer service. I can understand a new engine having teething problems. What I can?t understand is the manufacture disowning those customers who supported them in their early days. Dynon and Emag are great examples of companies taking care of their customers.

Nice to haves:
1. Constant speed or fixed pitch prop. Gotta keep the price down with a PF option to get as many engines in service as you can to reduce per unit pricing.
2. Local service centers. Not likely to happen with new engines and doesn?t seem to have stopped the auto conversion guys. Although they can get parts locally.

Not required:
1. Complete FWF packages will come, no need for you to develop them.

Your biggest issue will be word of mouth support. One person with a bad experience who knows how to use a computer can destroy a great product in short order.

Best of luck!

I believe Bill has just created the "Holy Grail" list for aviation engine production. I am in total agreement with his wish list. It is a tall order but IMHO I believe this is a list that every one of us wishes he could have in his engine choice. We want to be able to do what the hot rodders all over the globe do everyday when they want to build or rebuild a street machine with some character and performance. Like them, we want to be able to do it on a normal working man's salary.

My thoughts are that the "better mousetrap" is not just in the creation of a new engine design (which, if could be done, would be quite a breakthrough) but rather it is also in the development of a new pricing structure that would allow for a drastic reduction in the cost of the engine product (it goes without saying that this would be as big a breakthrough as would be a new engine design).

I join with Bill in wishing you Best of Luck,
RVBYSDI
Steve

[jcoloccia]

Something occured to me last night while I was looking at all the new glass panel stuff out there. Anyone who thinks it's not a viable business model to market high quality aviation "stuff" cheaply needs to have a look at the revolution in glass panel/autopilot technology. Today, you can buy a Dynon for $2,000, a dual screen GRT for < $10,000, a 2 axis autopilot for <$4,000 etc etc etc.

People have recognized the market for cost effective avioncs and competition takes care of the rest and maintains the low pricing. Someone will eventually do the same for engines.

[RVbySDI]

Originally Posted by vanplane

These might well be adapted to basic aircraft engines -- which do the job so well that 50 years of new designs have not dethroned them --and improve them.

Oh I think we are fooling ourselves if we think that the existing "basic aircraft engines" have not been dethroned because they "do the job so well". I think they have not been dethroned because there are so many government regulations and fearmonging amongst the manufacturers and supporters of old technology. These entities and individuals have done everything in their powers to deny a level playing field for new technologies to take hold in the market.

RVBYSDI
Steve

[cjensen]

I want a cost effective turbine (oxymoron??) that burns no more than 10-12gph in cruise, delivers 200mph cruise, loooooooooong TBO (>3000), easy to operate, and simple to maintain. Innodyn is working on this, but they aren't there yet... Sorry, had to throw this in. I still listen to that start sequence video frequently...

[N941WR]

One additional thought.

Why does a new engine have to have a prop? Why not just make a turbojet engine?

I suspect we could ask Van's to design the RV-13 as a single engine two place jet?

Think about it, no more shock cooling, prop strikes, spinners, etc.

The only worry would be FOD.

[dbuds2]

Do you guys believe that many kit builders would tackle the job of assembling their engine? If there was a complete kit of Lyclone parts, with some of the newer accessories (FI, Pmag, etc), would you put it together?

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by dbuds2

Do you guys believe that many kit builders would tackle the job of assembling their engine? If there was a complete kit of Lyclone parts, with some of the newer accessories (FI, Pmag, etc), would you put it together?

This is a hard question to answer. IMHO I think it depends on the EAA chapter.

When I lived in NJ 11 years ago it was a badge of honor to rebuild your own engine.

Here in NC my chapter looks at me like I'm crazy when I tell them about the work I have done on my engine. All I keep hearing is, "Buy an Lyclone from so and so!"

That said, Heck yes, I'll put together a kit engine, if the price is right but 17,000 bucks isn't right.

You get it down to the $10,000 range w/o accessories and I think you will be so busy selling them that you won't be able to build them fast enough.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by dbuds2

Do you guys believe that many kit builders would tackle the job of assembling their engine? If there was a complete kit of Lyclone parts, with some of the newer accessories (FI, Pmag, etc), would you put it together?

I say yes... why not? You are already building the plane... why not the motor? Look at the Aero-Vee's that so many folks are putting in their Sonex'. If they can do a basic 80 hp for $5,995... why not a 125hp for 7 - 8K and maybe a 160 - 180 hp. for 9 - 10K?

Clear instructions - preferably a detailed builders video will help even a novice.

Just remember the KISS principle. I don't need to be on the cutting edge. Those that want to spend big buck for high tech can do so elsewhere or as an option.