What do You Want in An Engine

[dbuds2]

I'm researching what alternative engine qualities, performance, and cost the average RV builder (or ~200 HP experimental builder) would require to switch from the standard Lycoming. I am an RV builder, RV8, and an engineer at a major aerospace jet and rocket engine manufacture. I am very disappointed at the cost of powerplants available. I have a passion to do for the experimental engine business what Van's (and all the other successful kit companies) has done for the experimental plane business.

What would it take in cost, weight, performance, ease of installation, completeness of package, technology, economy, reliability, customer support, etc, to make you and most everyone else switch?

I'm putting together a team of designers and analytical engineers to solve this problem if the market demand is there.

PLease let me know what you want.

[N62XS]

While the question what do you want, is as old as Santa, the proper questions are what will the market bear in the way of R & D time, does a developer have sufficient financial resoureces to sustain the R & D effort to market and can a reliable, cost effective engine be delivered that can be repaired at any local airport in the world, by a local mechanic, in a reasonable period of time? Past attempts have proven that the cost of purchase is not necessarily the same final cost of ownership. Of all of the alternitive engines in the market, only two, Egg and Rotax, enjoy an install base the hundreds.

While I agree with your premise that engines are too expensive, the cost of ownership of a lycontinental is often, if not always, less expensive than the installation R & D ownership of an alternitive engine.

FFT: What is the actual production cost of a 4 banger lycontinental? I'll bet the profit margin will not beat the S & P 500.

[ww2planes]

Give me 220HP in under 300 Pounds and around $15,000 or less. The dependability is a must and it will have to be able to accomodate both fixed and constant speed props. Car gas would be a benefit. A complete firewall forward package will be needed. Good luck and hope to see something soon. I will be ready in about a year and a half. Good luck.

[osxuser]

Well, the key market to hit would aim between 180 and 220HP. You want to make it simple to install (aircooled has an advantage here) and very fuel efficient, running on the new 91-98 Lead-free avgas standard is probably going to be a requirement. A good engine to look for would be a redesign of a lycoming O-320 type engine with a completely different inductions and cylinder head setup. Fully electronic FI and Ignition, basically FADEC, ability to run a Hydraulic Constant speed prop. Crossflow/angle valve type head designs would probably be optimal, and I'd safely say that if enough engineering work was put into this engine, you could blow the auto conversions out of the water as far as efficiency and cost/complexity is concerned, as well as having the advantage that a FWF kit is already for the most part provided by Van's.

Honda/Continentals engine is an example of what I'm talking about, although I believe they tried to use water cooling:

http://www.eaa.org/communications/ea...tcm_honda.html

That is what I'm looking for to come down the pipe. I think that is really what everyone wants, an aviation specific engine that is truely more effcient. As everyone has proved with the Egg Subie, price isn't as big a factor to some people in the market.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by ww2planes

Give me 220HP in under 300 Pounds and around $15,000 or less. The dependability is a must and it will have to be able to accomodate both fixed and constant speed props. Car gas would be a benefit. A complete firewall forward package will be needed.

Make it so you can fly it upside down too! Subaru's and deltahawks don't allow negative G's.

Chuck

[srv]

You can't beat a monopoly. Honda and others looked at this industry and couldn't figure out how to do it, what makes you think you can? Look at Franklin and all these diesels that have been promised for years.

Alot of this isn't the engineering to build the great new engine. It's about engine mounts, firewall packages - heck, even cowling issues. Packaging and user experience. Even more is marketing.

I'd suggest a more open-software type solution. How about putting all these brains in with Egg (or the engine of your choice) and making it _THE_ perfect solution for all RV models? And 10 prop combinations. How much time does the average Egg builder spend fiddling versus an Lycosaur? The install base and testers are probably already out there for you.

Make it simple, prove it's reliable, and they will come. Volume will then fix your price problem.

[Deuskid]

Originally Posted by srv

You can't beat a monopoly. Honda and others looked at this industry and couldn't figure out how to do it, what makes you think you can? Look at Franklin and all these diesels that have been promised for years.

Alot of this isn't the engineering to build the great new engine. It's about engine mounts, firewall packages - heck, even cowling issues. Packaging and user experience. Even more is marketing.

I'd suggest a more open-software type solution. How about putting all these brains in with Egg (or the engine of your choice) and making it _THE_ perfect solution for all RV models? And 10 prop combinations. How much time does the average Egg builder spend fiddling versus an Lycosaur? The install base and testers are probably already out there for you.

Make it simple, prove it's reliable, and they will come. Volume will then fix your price problem.

That is what APPLE before IBM thought. That is how the rail roads before the trucking industry and shipping before airlines thought. Heck Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 were actually better than Word and Excel initially.

I don't disagree with perfecting what has begun [assuming whomever 'holds' that technology invites you to the table] but great innovation is often a leap-frog process then a seemingly serendipitous event pole vaults it into use.

I can't remember which great golfer quipted to someone who snidely commented at his just well placed 'lucky shot' - "yep, and the more I practice and the harder I work the luckier I get"...

Everything is replaced by the market [we don't burn whale oil at night anymore] and I think this guy doing market research is excellent. We need more not less innovators.

Oh, btw, I'd like to [and someday will] see a diesel 160-200 hp fwf package [I also believe there is a market for a diesel 1/2 that hp but I personally don't have an interest in it].

In addition to this thread I'd recommend you go and look at the engine forums here and read what has been discussed in the past and research other forums as well [there are several engine forums on Yahoo, notably Subies]. There is a rotary/wankle formum somewhere in cyber but I don't know much about it. Also look at some of the home grown experimental work being discussed at canardaviation.com

All the best,

John

[jcoloccia]

My opinion: While the Sub's have a lot of promise because the engine's are so simple to run (computer controlled, yada yada....), in terms of suitability to aircraft use the Lyconentials and their clones are actually quite good and are difficult to beat in terms of simplicity, performance and weight. My only gripe with them is they are astronomically priced. Honestly, there's not more than $10,000 worth of engine there, if that.

Wanna take over the market and beat the monopoly's? Use the Japanese model...copy the technology and sell it for 1/2 price. When you do, sign me up for one.

my $.02

[dan]

Originally Posted by jcoloccia

...copy the technology and sell it for 1/2 price. When you do, sign me up for one.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I want exactly what I'm running (IO-360-A1B6) except cheaper to buy, cheaper to overhaul. In the meantime I'm sticking with what I have.

[srv]

Originally Posted by Deuskid

That is what APPLE before IBM thought. That is how the rail roads before the trucking industry and shipping before airlines thought. Heck Word Perfect and Lotus 1-2-3 were actually better than Word and Excel initially.

... We need more not less innovators.

trucking and airlines needed huge subsidies (roads, airports and military AC R&D/orders) before they could become competitive with rail. For the most part, that's the only thing that can beat a monopoly. Gov't intervention or subsidy of your competitors.

Re WP and Lotus. Absolutely, I remember them well. And where are they now? The monopoly crushed them. Perhaps the kitplane crowd can be likened to the Apple crowd (as much a religion as anything else), but in the beginning there weren't any real competitors (IBM) in that market. Apple was a public company before IBM jumped in, but there is no doubt the true-believers kept that company afloat thru the hard parts.

Re innovators. I think I've seen a dozen on engine innovators in the last decade. What we really need are businessmen who know how to build and manage a manufacturing and services company and attract VC.

1000 kitplanes builders x Avg cost of Lyc = $25M.

Get that money going, and the engineering will take care of itself.