Poll: Overhead Breaks - good or bad

[az_gila]

Again, clarity.

Initial Point has a whole different meaning if you are approaching an airport with glider operations....

[Webb]

I pulled this off the web (note the figure does not have the entry lined up with the upwind leg). My concern about the upwind leg is it puts you in a direct head on with the downwind of the opposite runway. On a still day, there may be traffic on that downwind.

************************************************** ***********************

The FAA's position is, regardless of whether it is a controlled or uncontrolled field is, the overhead approach is perfectly legal. The communication phraseology, ie: "3 mile initial for the overhead break", is also standard phraseology.

From the AIM:

5-4-26. Overhead Approach Maneuver
a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-27.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved. Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of an IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver. Cancellation of the IFR flight plan must be accomplished after crossing the landing threshold on the initial portion of the maneuver or after landing. Controllers may authorize an overhead maneuver and issue the following to arriving aircraft:
1. Pattern altitude and direction of traffic. This information may be omitted if either is standard.
PHRASEOLOGY-
PATTERN ALTITUDE (altitude). RIGHT TURNS.
2. Request for a report on initial approach.
PHRASEOLOGY-
REPORT INITIAL.
3. "Break" information and a request for the pilot to report. The "Break Point" will be specified if nonstandard. Pilots may be requested to report "break" if required for traffic or other reasons.
PHRASEOLOGY-
BREAK AT (specified point).
REPORT BREAK.
FIG 5-4-27
Overhead Maneuver




From http://www.pilotsweb.com/pcg/pcg_o.htm

OVERHEAD MANEUVER- A series of predetermined maneuvers prescribed for aircraft (often in formation) for entry into the visual flight rules (VFR) traffic pattern and to proceed to a landing. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument flight rules (IFR) approach procedure. An aircraft executing an overhead maneuver is considered VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the "initial point" on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. The pattern usually specifies the following:
a. The radio contact required of the pilot.
b. The speed to be maintained.
c. An initial approach 3 to 5 miles in length.
d. An elliptical pattern consisting of two 180 degree turns.
e. A break point at which the first 180 degree turn is started.
f. The direction of turns.
g. Altitude (at least 500 feet above the conventional pattern).
h. A "Roll-out" on final approach not less than 1/4 mile from the landing threshold and not less than 300 feet above the ground.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by Toobuilder

I was taught that there are 5 legs in a civilian pattern: Upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, and final. Those that think they know where to look to find an airplane based on a cartoon in the AIM are fooling themselves.

So now is upwind just before crosswind? Or is upwind the same as final?

Because when you announce upwind for the overhead, which end of the runway are you?

[ccsmith51]

Say I am approaching the left hand pattern at an uncontrolled airport from the east, to land on 27. And say that there is a plane on crosswind and downwind.

Q1) I would normally enter the pattern on what I would call the upwind. That is, to the north side of the runway, about the same distance from the center line that the downwind is. I would then fly upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, and final. Is that the correct path, and is "White RV upwind 27" correct terminology?

Q2) Is the OB an acceptable procedure in this case? If so, where would I enter, behind the plane on crosswind? If I entered between the two, would I not be considered "butting in", or something similar?

Thanks,

[az_gila]

Originally Posted by Webb

I pulled this off the web (note the figure does not have the entry lined up with the upwind leg). My concern about the upwind leg is it puts you in a direct head on with the downwind of the opposite runway. On a still day, there may be traffic on that downwind.

************************************************** ***********************

The FAA's position is, regardless of whether it is a controlled or uncontrolled field is, the overhead approach is perfectly legal. The communication phraseology, ie: "3 mile initial for the overhead break", is also standard phraseology.

From the AIM:
.....

Yes... standard phraseology when in contact with ATC, not usually at non-towered airports. The first sentence of your AIM quote gives it's applicability - "...Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC)..." - that describes the rest of your quote.

I believe that is a major part of the confusion.

When I go into TUS, I expect the tower to keep the F-16s doing an overhead break away from me - I still look but I can't even hear the tower "standard phraseology" because the F-16s are on a different tower frequency that I don't even have...

PS - it is neat watching the F-16s doing an overhead break inside the class C.

PPS - I believe the FAA's position is that any pattern is legal if the the turns are in the correct direction and the right-of-way rules are followed, as per the FARs. The discussion here is what is confusing to other pilots, not legality.

[Toobuilder]

Originally Posted by gasman

So now is upwind just before crosswind? Or is upwind the same as final?

Depends on the modifier used and what the other pilots need for information. If a pilot simply needs to know where I am (because he's leaving the airport environment, for instance) Then my call of "3 mile upwind, runway 29, inbound.." tells him exactly where to look in the sky: I'm on or near centerline, runway heading, at pattern altitude, 3 miles to the SE of the airport, NW bound. Now, at 3 miles, a call of "final" is likely to have me in the exact same chunk of sky, but that's all the outbound pilot cares about.

Now, for pilots remaining in the pattern, they get my position info, but because I'm upwind AND inbound, they should also expect my next step in the process to be a "civilian pilot familiar" crosswind into the downwind. Unlike the departing pilot, the pattern guys care not only where I am but what I'm going to do next.

Originally Posted by gasman

...Because when you announce upwind for the overhead, which end of the runway are you?

My next call will likely be just at the airport fenceline, and I will call: "...silver RV, upwind for a midfield crosswind, left traffic, 29". This should let everyone know that I have not yet reached the middle of the airport, but it's going to happen very, very soon, and I'm going to be making a left turn to the cross.

[Toobuilder]

Originally Posted by ccsmith51

...Q1) I would normally enter the pattern on what I would call the upwind. That is, to the north side of the runway, about the same distance from the center line that the downwind is...

Some airports have restrictions for noise that keep you off to one side of a runway, while others will use the "cold side" for other ops, like jump planes, tugs, or ultralights. I've been taught that upwind is pretty much directly over the centerline of the runway in use. This makes sense to me because the dead center of the runway is going to be the least congested airspace in the area.

[Toobuilder]

Originally Posted by az_gila

Yes... standard phraseology when in contact with ATC, not usually at non-towered airports...

From the AIM, above: Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of an IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver.

I'm no lawyer and I don't even play one on tv, but it sure sounds like strictly speaking, tower or not, the OB is a VFR only event and the controlling agency is done with you (IFR) the instant you call your IP.

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by Toobuilder

Then my call of "3 mile upwind, runway 29, inbound.." tells him exactly where to look in the sky: I'm on or near centerline, runway heading, at pattern altitude, 3 miles to the SE of the airport, NW bound.

Sorry. It does not tell me where to look. To me "upwind" means departing the runway and "inbound" means the opposite.

Now if I am just uninformed, slow, uneducated, I can accept that. But if I am confused, maybe many other pilots would be too.

If the idea is to communicate, changing your call to the following is far better (mo better):

"3 miles east, runway 29, inbound"

[Toobuilder]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

Sorry. It does not tell me where to look. To me "upwind" means departing the runway and "inbound" means the opposite.

Now if I am just uninformed, slow, uneducated, I can accept that. But if I am confused, maybe many other pilots would be too.

If the idea is to communicate, changing your call to the following is far better (mo better):

"3 miles east, runway 29, inbound"

OK, I'm with you. But without the modifier "upwind", does this call not lead most to believe I'm just setting up for the default entry, the 45 (..into the downwind for 29)?

If I call "upwind", I've established a specific leg of the pattern. You at least know I'm lined up with the runway. If I simply call "east" - well there's a lot of sky "east".