H-6 with FP prop EARLY numbers

[Jconard]

I will let you know on the install time when I do it...3 cables, 4 wires, and some baffles...

Reading Meyette's site, it seems like there is a lot of re-work to do to bring the "package" up to snuff.

My only point is that a carbureted Lyc will start as easy, and go as fast on a given fuel burn or faster. You may not have the warm feeling that comes from knowing the most expensive technology is under the hood, but for the operations of an aircraft engine, mags and a carb are bulletproof, light and cheap. Plus, unless you want to run LOP or do sustained inverted flight, there is no need for FI. The sube cannot run LOP or extended inverted, so for functionally identical packages the carb is it!

The package would be:
O-360 $18,995
Hartzell $ 5,995
FWF Stuff: $5,000 (probably high)
$28K

Feeling of bulletproof flying : Priceless

Every addition is optional. Oh, and if you buy new EI only seems to add about $1000 to the price.

[cjensen]

Okay, I understand your comparison now...but the two are about as far apart technology-wise as you can get, which is the reason I set up my comparison the way I did.

To each his own...I see your point though.

EI costs depend on which EI you go with. Emag/Pmag can be had for about $1500, while dual Light Speed Plasma III goes for about $2800. I was just taking a low average. I couldn't find anything for $1000 (at least for a dual EI setup). The additions were only to bring the clone motor to or as close to the Subie technically as I could. I completely agree with you that you CAN buy a New clone with CS prop and FWF stuff for less money than the Egg H-6, but again, that's with a carb and mags (and there is NOTHING wrong with that, if that's what you want).

I originally just wanted to point out the new numbers from Jan with the FP prop, and that things were looking good.

[RVbySDI]

Originally Posted by cawmd82

Having said that, I simply do not understand the price structure. It is hard enough to argue that the Sub is as good, much less better than a Lyco for an RV-anything. Weight is a big issue that is glossed over and covered with talk of quiet, smooth,etc...............

Back to price----Why--exactly--do we get to pay $5-7 k beyond Lyco clone-Hartzell prices to be "Chief Test Pilot--Egg RV8"

I agree with Chuck here. All of these arguments about Lyclosaurse being better than Subies. . . No! Subies are better than Loclosaurses. . . all really comes down to price. Would anyone, and I do mean anyone, even the most die hard carb loving, magneto loving, no electrical system, give me a die hard big bore 4 cylinder engine to fly behind person ever deny that if they could put a reliable engine in their airplane for less than $10,000, complete FWF package, want to argue this point anymore?

Why the H E Double hockey sticks does an engine package, that includes, as its core, a 4 or 6 cylinder engine that any yahoo, with less than $2000 in his pocket, can purchase by driving his pickem up truck to the back door of the local Subaru dealer and loading up a brand new engine still in its crate, cost North of $30,000? No matter what anyone may think about the price of a bushel of corn. $28,000 is an awful lot of money needed to fabricate the rest of the metal, fiberglass, bolts, nuts, radiator, alternator, battery and what nots to make it fit in my RV!

I have said this before in another thread. . . I do not understand business plans that do not take advantage of demand for their product to make themselves a butt load of money. Selling 100 units @ $5,000 can make as much money as selling 15.33 units @ $30,000. To save everyone from having to do this strenous math that is $500,000. Now, if I could have a company that returns, at the low end, half a million dollars in sales, that would be considered a good start. But what happens if you double your units to 200, double that to 400, double that to 800. Hey, how many engines you suppose Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, on and on, name your car engine manufacturer, sell? Do I think Egg would ever sell that many? No. But, I do think they can sell as many as they can produce and then some if they would price that thing at a rate that is substantially less than their competitors. I absolutely will stand behind the idea that if Eggenfelner sold his engines @ $10,000 FWF he would sell everything he could build as fast as he could build it. And, Jan, no one will convince me that you will not make a heck of a profit doing it!

DO NOT PRICE YOUR PRODUCT TO THE POINT THAT YOU LIMIT YOUR MARKET BECAUSE THEY THINK IT IS OVERPRICED!!!! PRICE IT TO THE POINT THAT YOUR MARKET STOPS BEGGING FOR MORE BECAUSE YOU HAVE PRODUCED ENOUGH THAT EVERYONE THAT WANTS YOUR PRODUCT GETS YOUR PRODUCT. ONCE YOU HAVE REACHED THAT POINT MAINTAIN THAT PRODUCTION LEVEL AND PRICE LEVEL! YOU WILL MAKE A BUTT LOAD OF MONEY WHILE GIVING THE CONSUMER WHAT THEY WANT!!!

The most profitable business (IN THE WORLD) does this every single day of the year! They experience profits that not even their closest competitor can come within multi millions of dollars. If people did not think they were getting a decent product from them at a good price they would stop going to them. This holds true for your wonderful engine package too. Keep your quality high, keep your price low and no one will be able to come close to doing what you are doing. But, try to play at the same game as the existing businesses (Lycoming, Continental, ECI, PENN-YANN, Mattituck, etc. ad nauseum) and you will always fight them for market share.

Ok, I did not intend to high jack this thread. I hope my writing this will not divert the topic from the valuable technical entries others may post. This is my $.02 worth on the issue of price in our aviation world that I am sure many would think is not worth that much. But I shall continue to believe that if you could trick out a street rod with a GM crate engine and make it scream for less than $10,000 there should be no reason we cannot do the same with our RV's at a similar price.
RVBYSDI
Steve

[rv8ch]

Originally Posted by RVbySDI

Why the H E Double hockey sticks does an engine package, that includes, as its core, a 4 or 6 cylinder engine that any yahoo, with less than $2000 in his pocket, can purchase by driving his pickem up truck to the back door of the local Subaru dealer and loading up a brand new engine still in its crate, cost North of $30,000?

Wow - where can you get one for $2000? All the checking I did had it closer to $7000. Please do tell!

Originally Posted by RVbySDI

I have said this before in another thread. . . I do not understand business plans that do not take advantage of demand for their product to make themselves a butt load of money. ...

As far as I can tell, he's selling more engines than he can make now, and making more money than he can spend. I don't know Jan except as a customer of his, so I have no idea what motivates him. However, having lived and worked in Europe for more than a decade, I know that what motivates Europeans is not always the same as what motivates Americans. You can just about get any American to do just about anything for money. Europeans don't work that way. Believe me, when you're the boss, and you're trying to get your European employees to do something they don't want to do, it's a real pain. In the US, you just offer more money. Here, it's much more complex, and sometimes frustrating.

So, perhaps Eggenfellner is not trying to become Lycoming, and by raising prices, as he has done steadily over the last few years, he can keep his company at the size he wants to manage.

[cjensen]

Originally Posted by RVbySDI

Why the H E Double hockey sticks does an engine package, that includes, as its core, a 4 or 6 cylinder engine that any yahoo, with less than $2000 in his pocket, can purchase by driving his pickem up truck to the back door of the local Subaru dealer and loading up a brand new engine still in its crate, cost North of $30,000? No matter what anyone may think about the price of a bushel of corn. $28,000 is an awful lot of money needed to fabricate the rest of the metal, fiberglass, bolts, nuts, radiator, alternator, battery and what nots to make it fit in my RV!
RVBYSDI
Steve

There's no way there's $20k worth of engine in any lyc or clone engine either, but everybody pays it, because they are all priced in that area.

The cheapest new H-6 I've ever seen is around the $7k mark, as Mickey pointed out. There's a lot more that goes in to the FWF package than that...and Jan has to make a living-he developed it, he deserves whatever he's making off of it in my opinion.

Also, there's no need to make any major mods to the metal, fiberglass, bolts, nuts, radiator, alternator, battery, etc. The new engine with the belted redrive uses the SJ cowl, and there is no metal work that I'm aware of. All the other stuff is already positioned to fit.

What work are you referring to?

Just curious...

[RVbySDI]

Originally Posted by rv8ch

Wow - where can you get one for $2000? All the checking I did had it closer to $7000. Please do tell!

My apologies for making assumptions without basis in fact. I know that I can buy a crated 350 from Chevrolet for about $1500-$2000 so my error is in the assumption that a 4 or 6 cyl subie would be in the same ball park. Having said this, I think if Eggenfelner can buy the engine for $7,000 and only have to fabricate various parts to make it work on the RV and not, as they have claimed, have to alter the engine from stock, it should not cost another $23,000 to do so. There is enough profit built in to their price that I will concede the $5,000 difference you are telling me I errored with and still think that I am paying a heck of a premium to have them fabricate the package.

Originally Posted by rv8ch

As far as I can tell, he's selling more engines than he can make now, and making more money than he can spend. I don't know Jan except as a customer of his, so I have no idea what motivates him. However, having lived and worked in Europe for more than a decade, I know that what motivates Europeans is not always the same as what motivates Americans. You can just about get any American to do just about anything for money. Europeans don't work that way. Believe me, when you're the boss, and you're trying to get your European employees to do something they don't want to do, it's a real pain. In the US, you just offer more money. Here, it's much more complex, and sometimes frustrating.

So, perhaps Eggenfellner is not trying to become Lycoming, and by raising prices, as he has done steadily over the last few years, he can keep his company at the size he wants to manage.

That is a fair statement that I have no problems accepting. My point about the profit is that anyone can make money selling a quality product without having to price it at or above the competitions price. I think Eggenfelner has a fantastic product. I am very interested in it. The limiting factor that I have and was agreeing with Chuck on is not the weight issue. It is the price issue. My thoughts are that people like me would not even consider another alternative than to go with the Eggie Subie if the price were not so rediculously overpriced (And I mean the use of the word rediculously to be non-exclusive because I think all products marketed to aviation are rediculously overpriced). When I hear someone tell me that $20,000 - $30,000 for an engine and transmission is "cheap" I start feeling that nervous twitch above my eyebrow start going off.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply to my post. I appreciate all opinions and enjoy reading everyone's posts on these forums. Reading them has helped me immensly. Sometimes I just feel the compelling need to stick my $.02 worth into the mix.

RVBYSDI
Steve

[RVbySDI]

Originally Posted by cjensen

There's no way there's $20k worth of engine in any lyc or clone engine either, but everybody pays it, because they are all priced in that area.

I definetly agree with you on this part. Which is why I stated in my previous post that I think ALL aviation products are overpriced.

Originally Posted by cjensen

The cheapest new H-6 I've ever seen is around the $7k mark, as Mickey pointed out. There's a lot more that goes in to the FWF package than that...and Jan has to make a living-he developed it, he deserves whatever he's making off of it in my opinion.

Also, there's no need to make any major mods to the metal, fiberglass, bolts, nuts, radiator, alternator, battery, etc. The new engine with the belted redrive uses the SJ cowl, and there is no metal work that I'm aware of. All the other stuff is already positioned to fit.

What work are you referring to?

Just curious...

Chad, the work I was referring to was the work that Eggenfelner does to take that $7,000 stock subaru engine and make it work on a car with wings for another $23,000+. You further support my idea that these prices are beyond the idea that "he deserves whatever he's making off of it. . ." in your next paragraph when you imply that the SJ cowl is used in the FWF and no other metal work is needed. . . Other than mounting a radiator system, a couple of batteries, maybe an alternator, perhaps a heater for my cabin heat, oh yeah, and buying someone else's engineered PRSU and prop, Eggenfelner is not doing a whole lot of extra engineering to the engines to make them work. Yet, they are pricing the package at a high premium price.

I do not believe that the "price of doing business" is driving his escalating price increases. Now, I could be wrong. God knows I have no factual knowledge of what it cost him, or Lycoming for that matter, to put together an engine for an RV. But everything I do believe tells me that it doesn't cost him anywhere near that $30,000+ price. What I am saying is that even if he sold his engines at a more reasonable price he could still make a comfortable profit. In fact, my contention is that if everyone sold their products at a more reasonable price they could still make a comfortable profit and all of us as consumers would be happy as clams, not struggling with ways to figure out how to afford flying and we would not be arguing about whose product is better.

RVBYSDI
Steve

[RVbySDI]

I hoped to not be guilty of another high jacking. My appologies to all for doing so. I am very interested in the H-6 with FP prop numbers. I hope others will post their thoughts on this issue as I am indeed very interested in the performance of the Eggenfelner engines. Futher my appologies to Mr. Jan Eggenfelner if he is reading and to all his supporters. My opinions about engine pricing are not meant to be personal in any way. I hope none were construed to be so. I am very interested in the Subaru engines and very interested in their performance numbers.

RVBYSDI
Steve

[cjensen]

Originally Posted by RVbySDI

I definetly agree with you on this part. Which is why I stated in my previous post that I think ALL aviation products are overpriced.

Chad, the work I was referring to was the work that Eggenfelner does to take that $7,000 stock subaru engine and make it work on a car with wings for another $23,000+. You further support my idea that these prices are beyond the idea that "he deserves whatever he's making off of it. . ." in your next paragraph when you imply that the SJ cowl is used in the FWF and no other metal work is needed. . . Other than mounting a radiator system, a couple of batteries, maybe an alternator, perhaps a heater for my cabin heat, oh yeah, and buying someone else's engineered PRSU and prop, Eggenfelner is not doing a whole lot of extra engineering to the engines to make them work. Yet, they are pricing the package at a high premium price.

The only issue I take with this paragraph is that the $23k price includes that $7 Subie...all you need beyond the 23 is a prop, and there are definately others that will work for less money (like a Quinti/Warp Drive for about $1500). The prop price is driven from the manufacturer (MT and Sensenich), and he sells 'em at a discount to his customers. The MT, for example, is a $12,000 prop that he can sell for $8900.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong about this, but it's my understanding that the PSRU now used is Jan's design? I stand to be corrected easily on this one...

Originally Posted by RVbySDI

I do not believe that the "price of doing business" is driving his escalating price increases. Now, I could be wrong. God knows I have no factual knowledge of what it cost him, or Lycoming for that matter, to put together an engine for an RV. But everything I do believe tells me that it doesn't cost him anywhere near that $30,000+ price. What I am saying is that even if he sold his engines at a more reasonable price he could still make a comfortable profit. In fact, my contention is that if everyone sold their products at a more reasonable price they could still make a comfortable profit and all of us as consumers would be happy as clams, not struggling with ways to figure out how to afford flying and we would not be arguing about whose product is better.

RVBYSDI
Steve

Agreed. But since I want one, I guess I'll pay his asking price...as I would have to with any engine product.

[cjensen]

Originally Posted by RVbySDI

I hoped to not be guilty of another high jacking. My appologies to all for doing so. I am very interested in the H-6 with FP prop numbers. I hope others will post their thoughts on this issue as I am indeed very interested in the performance of the Eggenfelner engines. Futher my appologies to Mr. Jan Eggenfelner if he is reading and to all his supporters. My opinions about engine pricing are not meant to be personal in any way. I hope none were construed to be so. I am very interested in the Subaru engines and very interested in their performance numbers.

RVBYSDI
Steve

Nice disclaimer!!