Canadian Builders

[CDBridgesRV7A]

Hey Gang,

I've just finished up my HS and VS. What portions of the build are we supposed to bring in MD-RA for their inspection? I already have the HS and VS all buttoned up and I don't plan on removing rivets for them to look inside.

I'm a little frsutrated with MD-RA already and I haven't even had any dealings with them yet. $80 for a letter of intent informing them that I intend to build an airplane. Are you kidding me! And then $365, plus $0.50/km each time an inspector comes out!! Really! I need a job like that. $365 for a guy to come to my hangar and say "Yep, looks good". Plus I have to pay him mileage to get there and back. RIP OFF!!!

Sorry for the rant All I really want to know is when do I have to start paying to have these guys come out here to tell me what I already know?

Cheers

Chris

[lorne green]

If your MDRA inspector can't see inside the parts with a mirror or borescope you may have a few rives to drill out. These inspections are called "pre-close inspections".
Bundle all of your parts and get one pre-close inspection. This is what I did on my QB7a. Wings, Fuse, emp.
One inpection, one fee, one travel fee.
A second pair of eyes can be reasurring.

[Bevan]

I did the same as Lorne. Built emp, fuse and wings leaving one side unriveted and the top of the fuse skin off. I was confident in the rivet quality, deburring etc as I had other local airplanes to look at and other builders look at my work too. The MDRA was merely "official" approval. You could deal direct with TC but may have to wait for them to fit you in.

Speaking of (low value expenditures), I'm a very slow build and at one point got a letter asking for some kind of a "keep your letter of intent on file" fee if in fact I was still building. I called and told them I don't intend to pay rent on some space in their file cabinet for my letter of intent (or something to that effect). The gal on the phone agreed and that was the end of that.

Bevan
RV7A wiring

[terrye]

Don't rant, just play the game. Get on their website and read it from start to finish. When you have finished, give them a call, ask to speak to the regional rep with any further questions/clarifications you need. If you don't get what you need call the head office and speak to Alan Mahon the president.

They're the only game in town, TC is no longer in the game so get used to it.

I had a question of whether I could close the fuel tanks prior to the "pre-close inspection". Couldn't get a straight answer, other than call for an inspection and speak to the inspector. Did that, the one I got said go ahead and close the tanks (don't know if other inspectors would have said no I want to look inside). Closed the tanks, arranged for the inspection, he inspected the empennage, ailerons, flaps, wings, outside of the fuel tanks, all passed. Then asked "where's the fuselage"? Not done yet. Guess what? I get to pay another "pre-cover fee" to get the fuselage done.

Complained loudly and at length to MDRA headquarters with several suggestions as to how they could make their site/service more "user friendly", including a schedule for RVs detailing EXACTLY what stage the various subassemblies can be completed before requiring an inspection. Good idea. Never implemented. Also told them that if not all subassemblies are done at the first "pre-cover" there should be a small continuation fee for the extra paperwork, not an additional "full" fee. Not implemented.

So I'm building my fuselage and I will have another LONG telephone discussion with them before calling for another inspection.

[Snowflake]

In Canada, the rule is quite simple. If the structure closes a volume, it needs to be inspected before its closed. If that's not clear for the component you're finishing, call your local MD-RA inspector and get clarification before you close it. In your case, as the tail is the first thing you build on the kit, you have about zero chance of getting away from drilling out rivets to open the parts. It sucks, but them's the breaks. The regs are quite clear.

Terry got lucky with the tanks, but it's easy to see how that could be allowed (or perhaps "overlooked" is a better word) when the inspector had the tail, wings, ailerons, flaps, etc. to look at to gauge whether the builder had a clue or not. If he can see inside and out on all the other components, and the outside of the tanks looks good, chances are the insides are okay too. It meets the intent of the regs (producing safe aircraft) if not the exact requirements.

[terrye]

Rob, I don't know if I got "lucky" or not with the tanks. I understood the intent of the "pre-cover" regulation and tried to get confirmation or a ruling before I put the rear baffle on from two local MDRA inspectors. Neither would say at what stage they should be inspected, only to "call for an inspection". From the point of view that the tanks are an enclosed component, the "pre-cover" inspection seems to indicate they should be inspected before closing, that is before the rear baffle is attached. But if they needed to be inspected, would that be before I encapsulated the shop heads of all the rivets with proseal? Or just before riveting the rear baffle on. In either case you don't get to see all the shop heads which is what I think they want to look at. But from the point of view that the tanks are really non structural (that is non aerodynamic load bearing), I think that an inspection is probably not required. And I also wondered how the MDRA viewed quickbuild kits where the fuel tanks are completed as delivered and thus unable to be inspected.

So the tanks in particular to me are a 'grey' area as far as the intent of the "pre-closing" inspection goes. I really think this inspection is a carryover from fabric covered aircraft. And with so many RVs being built and inspected, I think the MDRA should have a consistent position on such things as fuel tanks and not leave it up to the whim of an individual inspector as to whether or at what stage the tanks need to be inspected.

I do want to say I am not criticizing my inspector, who I enjoyed meeting and who I think did a thorough job on my airplane. And he gave me the go ahead to close the tanks before he had seen any of the other components I had built. But the organization needs to be more consistent and user friendly, and post advice on their website to give guidance to builders in these 'grey' areas.

Moving on to the fuselage, I was told that the only enclosed space which needs a "pre-closing" inspection is under the baggage compartment floor. I had planned to attach the under seat panel and the baggage compartment floors with screws and platenuts for better access/maintainability. Apparently it still needs a "pre-closing" inspection for another $365. Doesn't make sense.

[SMO]

Originally Posted by terrye

Moving on to the fuselage, I was told that the only enclosed space which needs a "pre-closing" inspection is under the baggage compartment floor. I had planned to attach the under seat panel and the baggage compartment floors with screws and platenuts for better access/maintainability. Apparently it still needs a "pre-closing" inspection for another $365. Doesn't make sense.

If it were me I would not get another "pre close" but have the floor opened up for the final. I can't see what they could possibly complain about. On my F1 Rocket I had the preclose done before I had the floors in, no mention about needing another preclose. My floors are also screwed in and will be taken up before the inspection occurs. My wings are quick-build with the tanks installed, no mention of needing to do an internal inspection. The only deficiency on my pre-close was I had not drilled any drain holes in the HS and elevators.

[terrye]

Mark, thanks for the advice, it's worth a try. It'll be a while before my fuselage is complete anyway. However, I did discuss this with MDRA and I got the impression that they couldn't "combine" a "pre-close" and a "final" inspection. In any case, I will be able to take the floor panels up quite easily and if they must do a separate "pre-close" inspection on the fuselage then I can accommodate them.

[jimgreen]

Originally Posted by CDBridgesRV7A

Hey Gang,

I've just finished up my HS and VS. What portions of the build are we supposed to bring in MD-RA for their inspection? I already have the HS and VS all buttoned up and I don't plan on removing rivets for them to look inside.

I'm a little frsutrated with MD-RA already and I haven't even had any dealings with them yet. $80 for a letter of intent informing them that I intend to build an airplane. Are you kidding me! And then $365, plus $0.50/km each time an inspector comes out!! Really! I need a job like that. $365 for a guy to come to my hangar and say "Yep, looks good". Plus I have to pay him mileage to get there and back. RIP OFF!!!

Sorry for the rant All I really want to know is when do I have to start paying to have these guys come out here to tell me what I already know?

Cheers

Chris

I believe both the HS and VS can be inspected through the lightening holes. IIRC I drilled a hole in the ends of the elevators to allow inspection, although the inspector didn't bother looking.

[Snowflake]

Originally Posted by terrye

But from the point of view that the tanks are really non structural (that is non aerodynamic load bearing), I think that an inspection is probably not required. And I also wondered how the MDRA viewed quickbuild kits where the fuel tanks are completed as delivered and thus unable to be inspected.

Actually, the tanks *are* structural... Both fuel-load-bearing and aerodynamic-load-bearing. From the leading edge to the spar accounts for a quite significant portion of your lift, and the tanks are just under half your wingspan.

The tanks are line any other open cavity on the airplane that gets closed later. After the wings get closed you can't inspect all of the shop heads on all of the rivets that went into the last panel either. But by inspecting the rest of the shop heads in there *before* closing, the inspector will get a good idea whether or not you know what you're doing.

On the tail kit, some of your first rivets on the project get hidden when you close the surfaces. The MDRA rep doesn't want to take the chance that you're hiding bad work when he has little else to compare to.

FWIW, I was told by a local inspector that borescopes could not be used to inspect closed structures as an alternative to a "pre-close."

I should add that getting to know your inspector will go a long way towards having a pleasant inspection experience.