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  #31  
Old 07-24-2011, 08:32 AM
Pat Stewart Pat Stewart is offline
 
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Originally Posted by midwest rv-10 View Post
I read the articles in Sport Aviation and Van's original post regarding Greg's aircraft and I find it ironic that Van chooses to step in to caution people about aspects of one of the finest RV-10 examples built to date. Where is Van's critical thinking regarding installation of Automotive engines in 10's. To date the track record is one dead and two barely escaping with there lives during a deadstick landing trying to reach the runway and two more who were burnt when the plane exploded on the taxiway and the plane burnt to the ground. This seems to be a more urgent topic to discuss with builders, I know it has been talked about some in the past but not at the level of Greg's -10. Not a full 2 page article.

Or what about the doors coming off of the 10's inflight. There's a newsworthy topic... Everyone was asking for their input to be heard after numerous accounts of doors coming off in flight started occuring, we heard NOTHING for 2 yrs. Then we get service bulletin placed on the plane and patch instead of a redisigned latching system.
It's ironic that Greg's plane has one of the best door latching systems offered to date for the 10! That somehow got overlooked in the critique.

What about commenting on Get'r Donitis?
Here is an area where Van could use his influence to reach out to those builders who are setting artifical deadlines to complete their build and get in the air. Builders would listen to Van regarding things like this if done in a fashion similar to the Safety articles he has put out recently.
I feel Van could have approached this so much better than this and still achieved his goal. Instead he singles out a quality builder and points out his "issues" to the entire community.
How many poor quality built aircraft have shown up at shows but are somehow not being exposed to the criticism that has been placed on Greg?

Sport Aviation seemed to think Greg's plane was something special to get the original article done, now they come back and do a Van's perspective update that try's to rewrite their original article. Not Cool...

Greg,
I went to your site and read the other side of the story you provided. I suggest others do as well.
I hope to see your plane at OshKosh, you did a great job!
Don Orrick
N410JA
Bravo Don, you are correct. Greg, congratulations on yet another outstanding build. I had the pleasure of seeing your RV8 many years ago at a fly in and it inspired me to build an RV. Since then I have built (2) RV8's and just finished a 10. Van may have had a couple of valid points but his communication method was very poor.

Pat
  #32  
Old 07-24-2011, 08:36 AM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Flyfalcons View Post
Why not? Who made you the authority on the minimum utility of someone's personal aircraft?
Like (almost) everybody else in this forum, I state my opinion politely and without aggression. Kindly do me the same honour

This whole episode has been unfortunate and obviously upsetting to Greg. Aesthetics apart (and it's not to my taste.......), VAN is trying to make a valid safety point concerning the practice of declaring a gross weight above his recommended maximum (amongst other issues). Not, perhaps, as subtlely as he might have.....

Nuff said
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  #33  
Old 07-24-2011, 08:43 AM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by paul330 View Post
But taking a proven design and bulking it out so that it cannot perform to the original spec is not what is meant by "experimental".
......

Like (almost) everybody else in this forum, I state my opinion politely and without aggression. Kindly do me the same honour

This whole episode has been unfortunate and obviously upsetting to Greg. Aesthetics apart (and it's not to my taste.......), VAN is trying to make a valid safety point concerning the practice of declaring a gross weight above his recommended maximum (amongst other issues). Not, perhaps, as subtlely as he might have.....

Nuff said
his critical point that your original statement of a complete definition of experimental is factory defined is still valid.

edit: and in an ironic way, greg has done what lancair did when they certified the columbias- bulked them out to "cadillac" specs
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Last edited by Danny7 : 07-24-2011 at 08:46 AM.
  #34  
Old 07-24-2011, 01:44 PM
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Bill Wightman Bill Wightman is offline
 
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Greg, what a beautiful airplane you have there!
Don't let the circumstances get you down.
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  #35  
Old 07-24-2011, 05:46 PM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by paul330 View Post
I believe VAN was totally justified in making comment on what he felt was a misuse of his design. By buying his kit, we should honour his design and the testing that has been done.
Difference in UK and US thinking. It wasn't a misuse, it was a customers personalization. No one tells me what I can and can't do with something I own/build. Van gets no say in what becomes of a kit once it leaves the factory. If I want to stretch an RV-4 and slap an O-540 on it, I will. If I want to build it to spec because I'm not creative enough to do anything else, then that's what I'll do (am doing).
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  #36  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:20 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest rv-10 View Post
Lastly, I agree that a private chat with an individual builder cannot raise safety awareness the same way a public posting can. Van could have at least talked to Greg first to let him know about his concerns and give him an opportunity to explain his side prior to writing the article, and SA should have let Greg add his explanations to how he made his decisions as well.
So let me ask a simple question for all those that are taking Van to task for the method of his communication - in essence, criticizing Greg in public rather than private?

How many of you have extended Van the same courtesy? How many sent Van a note (privately) that you were disappointed in his behavior. I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that very, very few of you have done so. How does that make you any different than what you believe that Van "did" to Greg?



Do I feel for Greg? Sure - a few weeks back, I posted a picture of the fuel line routing on our RV-3 project. That is all the pictures were intended to show. But I put them out there, and because I had some questionable stuff in the background (a poor cotter pin for instance), a very experienced builder whom I respect came on the thread and pointed out all the things that were wrong. Well, I was miffed - I'll admit it. None of that stuff was ready for inspection, and frankly, most had been fixed before he pointed it out (the picture was a few work sessions old). But was he wrong? Well....I have a certain level of notoriety in this world, and some new builder might come along and look at that picture and say "well, if HE did it that way, then it must be OK for me", not understanding the context of a "work in progress" shot. So in reality, it was a useful post, even though I didn't like it, and ever since, I have taken care to point out that when I "put something out there" on the project airplane, other things in the photo might not be finished examples of how you should do things. A simple disclaimer can work.

When you "put yourself out there" in public, I have learned, it is hard to complain about the response that you get. You'd like disagreements to be handled in private, but sometimes, the public distribution of one side of a "story" needs to be countered with a public distribution of the "other" side.

It is a shame that the editors of the magazine that started this did such an abhorrent job at what editors should do. If this had been the case (as pointed out by our able journalist Bob Collins awhile back), then none of this would be an issue.

Folks, does anyone have an additional point to be made, other than simply piling on "votes" for one position or another? I have seen no new points in three or more pages, and sense that all the information is out there for posterity for all to read. I'm not going to close the thread, because then I will be accused of over moderation, but let's ask just how civil it is to "pile on".

Anybody else have anything NEW, or can we all go and enjoy Oshkosh?
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Last edited by Ironflight : 07-24-2011 at 06:55 PM.
  #37  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:30 PM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post

How many of you have extended Van the same courtesy? How many sent Van a note (privately) that you were disappointed in his behavior. I'd be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that very, very few of you have done so. How does that make you any different than what you believe that Van "did" to Greg?
Right here.

Haven't heard a peep.

This is a trend. A certain RV-10 with a fire on the ground here, Van posted second hand pictures and flamed that builder too without all the facts or talking to the individual.
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Last edited by Sig600 : 07-24-2011 at 06:33 PM.
  #38  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:41 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
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I'm an engineer by education and in my professional life. Unfortunately, engineering is blunt. F=MA, E=MC^2, all those things.

Van pointed out a couple of modifications (the seatbelt attach and the rudder pedal mod) that are poorly engineered with very real potential consequences. Fortunately, both of those changes are easy to rectify. The gross weight issue is something else entirely, and has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum.

I commend Van's for pointing out the easy to correct problems and explaining why those modifications were not good choices. I have no idea where Greg, Sport Aviation, or Van's could have done anything different given the sequence of events. Greg built the airplane he wanted, SA wrote an article on the airplane, and Van's, in looking out for its (and Greg's and other RV-10 builders) interest had to raise the red flag. That's just the way it is.
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2011, 05:19 AM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
,......... but let's ask just how civil it is to "pile on".

Anybody else have anything NEW, or can we all go and enjoy Oshkosh?
Very well said, as usual, Paul,

Best,
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2011, 06:31 AM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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BTW, speaking of Van's concern for safety, I never did hear back from the company after several big cables -- each purchased at different times -- had their connectors easily twist off in my hands. I contacted the company, they asked that nothing be said online, and said there may have to be a service bulletin. That was the last I heard from the company and, of course, there was no service bulletin. But the company had someone making cables who thought heat shrink is what keeps connectors on.

I appreciate what Van was trying -- and is trying -- to do regarding safe RV construction. I would like a little more consistency in its application.
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