built your own?

[skelrad]

Originally Posted by Allen Barrett

If you decide to assemble your own engine, the only warranty you're going to get is the parts warranty which in all but a few special instances, is one year FROM DATE OF SALE. Since you are supplying the labor, how are you going to warranty yourself? There is an answer, think about it...

That's what I was driving at - that instead of getting a one year or three year warranty on an engine, you're getting nothing but parts. That's where the question of cost difference comes in. If you're only saving a few thousand dollars by building yourself, is that savings worth not having a warranty through a shop? If the savings by building yourself is $10k, then yes, maybe it's worth it even though you won't have a warranty. That's why I would like to know what the approximate cost of building one of these kits is - to find out what the actual trade off is in terms of cost savings vs. having a warranty.

[sf3543]

The total cost of the ECI kit, 180 HP parallel valve w/FI, including the hardware, changing sumps to a horiz FI system and all the expendables (oil, STP, permatex, etc.) not including tools was right at $20K. (About a year ago.) Compare that to VAN's Lycoming cost for the savings. Building it saved about $2K, if I remember correctly and as long as I get the warranty on parts, I'm good to go.
Everyone will have their own take on warranty, but to me, being a kit builder, I would like to build and understand as much of the plane as possible.
Nobody is wrong in this discussion, you have to decide how you want to spend your money and what amount of work you want to do and then just do it.

[7pilot]

Taxes....this is one of the things I have been considering carefully when I think about my engine. In Texas the sales tax is 8.5% - that adds on another $1700 when I buy an engine here - for instance at Superior. If I buy all the parts through the mail and out of state - there will be no sales tax. So that pushes the savings up to @ $3500! I had been considering going through AeroSport - but then they have to report where that engine is going. I would expect our state treasurer may be real interested too.

Just curious, what do you think you need waranteed if you build it yourself? You will know how to repair it, and from what I understand it wouldn't be that difficult. You will get the parts for free if it fails in the first year, then it is just your time.

Stewart - still on the fence where to buy, but looking real hard....

[szicree]

Originally Posted by 7pilot

If I buy all the parts through the mail and out of state - there will be no sales tax. So that pushes the savings up to @ $3500! I had been considering going through AeroSport - but then they have to report where that engine is going. I would expect our state treasurer may be real interested too.

Just curious, what do you think you need waranteed if you build it yourself? You will know how to repair it, and from what I understand it wouldn't be that difficult. You will get the parts for free if it fails in the first year, then it is just your time.

I don't know about Texas, but here in California the taxman wants his dough for anything you buy and use here. They call it use tax rather than sales tax if you buy it elsewhere.

Regarding the parts warrantee, I would guess that only defective parts are covered, not the parts that are destroyed by them when things go kablooey.

[skelrad]

Originally Posted by 7pilot

Just curious, what do you think you need waranteed if you build it yourself? You will know how to repair it, and from what I understand it wouldn't be that difficult. You will get the parts for free if it fails in the first year, then it is just your time.

With the kit built engine, the only important warranty is the parts obviously. My concern has to do with how long that warranty lasts - if most parts warranties only last one year beyond purchase date, that's really pushing it for a lot of guys to finish up the plane and get the engine fired up and in the air. Sure, you know how to repair the engine if a part fails, but unless you got the engine hung and in the air immediately, there may be nothing left of your parts warranty. That's all I was thinking.

That being said, personally, I don't think I really care. I really would like to build my engine vs. buy one from a shop. I'm just suggesting that a parts warranty may not do you much good by the time you're ready to fire the engine up. Replacing parts will probably be on your dime. Now, with most pro-built engines this will probably be the case as well. Although, I thought I had read somewhere that some builders warranty their engines for one year from first start, and one even warranties for 3 years.

[rgbewley]

Two things:

1) Some states, including Oklahoma have eliminated sales tax on aircraft parts sales, which happens to include the outright sale of aircraft engines. They still tax pilot supplies, but even if you buy a gasket from an OK engine shop there's no sales tax.

2) Regarding warranty, even if the parts warranty is 3, 4 or 5 years, if the parts manufacturer determines that the parts failed due to "improper assembly", you are on your own.

[Scott DellAngelo]

Ok so I gotta stir the pot a little....

What is going to break? How often do you hear of airplane engines breaking? I'm talking rods, cranks, and the like. Especially new or newly overhauled ones? Ask yourself, was that crank going to break whether guy A or guy B bolted it together? Have you ever looked at the size of the crank, rods, bearings, etc in a 4 banger lycoming? Have you looked at the size of the same parts in say a turbo Supra that someone pushes to well over 1000 hp and not break? If they come out with AD's, etc, then that will happen no matter who built it.

In my opinion, we all have those, the ONLY warranty that matters is the parts. If you can build the airplane, you are more than capable of building the engine. A properly calibrated torque wrench, a couple non-standard tools like cylinder wrenches, and a basic reading ability is about all you need. These are not like trick race motors that are modified at every possible point. They are so darn simple that the cam does not even ride on bearings!!!! The power section of the motor can be built in about 20 minutes (or less) if you had all the parts ready to go and had done it before. There is NO black magic. Bolts and torques, that's it basically. The engine's in my 2 stroke snowmobiles are far more complicated.

Now of course some people would rather pay for it being done and have the piece of mind that someone whom has built many before put it together, but those who have thoughts of doing it themselves it is not hard. Order the rebuilding video and watch it. Read this website http://brian76.mystarband.net/SuperiorTextPics.htm about it. Make your decision and absolutely get an overhaul manual. Check, re-check, triple check things before moving on.

Scott
#90598 - N598SD Flying - 23 hrs

[Allen Barrett]

The big issue is going to be WHO the parts manufacturer believes is at fault, heaven forbid a catastrofic failure occurs. Will they side with a professional shop that has built countless engines of the type in question, or are they going to side with the owner, builder experiencing his first taste of engine building?

Which way do the rod nuts go on? Wait! Are these rod nuts or cylinder base nuts? Sure look the same to me! What's this castle nut torque to? WHERE DOES IT GO, AND WHEN DO I PUT IT THERE?

BTW, the crankcase acts as the bearing for the camshaft. Automotive engines (chevy's and fords etc) are cast iron blocks so they have to have a soft 'type' bearing for the camshaft. Steel on steel won't work nor will aluminum on aluminum.

Any engine shop worth doing business with will stand behind their product. Most will bend over backwards to ensure you remain satisfied even after the warranty period is over as long as they are convinced that the issue is due to their negligence.

[Scott DellAngelo]

Oh yeah one more thing for the people thinking of doing this, I consider my lycoming engine parts manual for my engine as important as the overhaul manual was. That one is cheap and was invaluable.

Scott
#90598 - N598SD Flying - 23 hrs