RV-6A spins

[albertaflyer]

Hi all, using my rv6a to get my private pilots license. Things are going really good! I have about ten hours and up to this point have covered slow flight as well as power on/off stalls. It says that spins are not recommended but I am required to do some as part of my training. Just wondering if you guys have some recommendations for spinning a 6? Btw would just like to add that I am extremely happy with my purchase of an rv6a.

[Ironflight]

Best way to spin a -6? Spin it into a nice tie-down spot and go get a Citabria for your spin training....

I'll be honest though - I am passing on here say, as I have never spun one - I have spun a lot of other airplanes however. My thoughts on the -6 come from very well respected -6 pilots who have spun them and decided that they didn't want to do it anymore.

Paul

[AltonD]

A legacy -6 has a small rudder. That is why the -7, -8, and -9 all have bigger rudders. I transition trained in a -6A. The instructor said he did it once and would not do it again. I would follow his and Paul's advice.

[Bavafa]

A short while back I decided to get some spin training in my RV7A so I went with my IFR instructor who I have much respect for his knowledge and ability and we tried it 10-15 times. I had not had any spin training other then what is taught for PPL which is actually spin awareness and you don't get into fully developed spin. The training went well and I am very happy to have done it but will not try it on my own intentionally, even though I practiced it at least 10-12 times.

Comparing the behavior of a 7A was not that much different then the Cessna 152 (the only other plane that I have been in a fully developed spin).

Anyway, I hope this helps but I would caution you to be very careful and as Paul suggest, try it with a competent instructor in a plane that he is comfortable with.

Good luck with your instuctions.

[n5lp]

I have spun my RV-6 quite a few times but only solo and only through 2 turns, as Van's recommends.

After Van spun the aircraft he had a flight test professional evaluate the spin characteristics.

From my manual "The prototype RV-6 exhibited good spin resistance in the forceful pro-spin (full up elevator and full rudder) control pressures were necessary to induce a fully established spin. Good spin recovery was evident during the first two rotations. Simply releasing the controls during the 1st rotation stopped the spin, and opposite rudder and forward stick caused a quick recovery during the second rotation. After two turns, the rotation rate increased and stabilized between 3 and 4 turns with a high rate of rotation of about 180 degrees/second. Once the spin had stabilized, the RV-6 would continue spinning until anti-rotation control inputs were applied. This consisted of applying full opposite rudder, centering the ailerons and moving the stick toward elevator center. In the stabilized spin, the elevators remained in the up position and pressure was needed to move the stick forward. Moving the stick full forward caused the nose to lower and the spin rate to further increase. The best recovery procedure was full opposite rudder, center the ailerons and move the stick forward from the full up position. As the stick was moved forward, the rotation rate decreased and stopped, after which a pull-out was accomplished. After anti-spin control was applied, between 1 1/4 and 1 3/4 turns were required to stop rotation."

So, in my opinion, not too alarming for someone familiar with spins who only wants to recover from a botched manuveur, but not a very suitable airplane for really exploring spins and it will not necessarily recover by simply releasing the controls.

Like Paul says, a Citabria would be good, or even a Cessna 150.

[Neal@F14]

Originally Posted by n5lp

Like Paul says, a Citabria would be good, or even a Cessna 150.

Or if you're really apprehensive about spins, but must do some anyway just to be able to log some spins, a Cherokee 140 is very docile in its spins... or at least mine was. It took full yoke back against the stop, and full left rudder to the floor to get it to enter the spin, and just simply letting up on the rudder pedal would exit the spin and then you'd pull out of the resulting dive to keep from overspeeding the plane.

However, I can't really recommend using a Cherokee for proper spin training itself, because it's way too docile and if you get accustomed to those slow graceful Cherokee spins (but the plane still falls down from the sky like a rock) and then think the next kind of plane you spin will be similarly tame, you may be in for a frightfully rude awakening.

I haven't spun an RV yet. I'm too chicken.

[sandifer]

I guess it depends on what your definition of "spin training" is...it's not all created equal. This can range from immediate recovery from the incipient spin, to recovery after 1 or 2 turns, to full-blown flat/accelerated/crossover spins in both upright and inverted modes. The latter obviously will not be practical in most RV's due to the need for inverted systems.

Most spin training involves plain-vanilla upright spins in Citabria/Cessna types. For this limited type of spin training, spinning past 2 turns serves little purpose other than to get your inner ear in a potentially vertigo-inducing state after the spin has been stopped. This can be valuable in and of itself, but it's not typically the point of your average spin training...and it's rare for an instructor to have the student perform the number of revolutions needed to really get your inner ear going anyway. Try a 12-turn spin sometime and you'll see what I mean. So if all you're doing is basic upright spins, going past 2 turns will not affect how the proper spin recovery inputs get imprinted into your brain.

So for "typical" spin training, I don't see why an RV-6 could not be used, as long as your instructor is familiar and comfortable in type, and turns are limited to 2-turns or so (only to prevent unnecessary stress for the student, and to more closely replicate more "normal" spin characteristics). I have never spun a -6, but know experienced aerobatic pilots who have, and they all say that there's nothing funny about them other than the fact that they rotate quicker than many other planes once fully developed, and take a little longer (once developed) to recover than the FAA requirements for TC'd airplanes that are approved for spins.

Unfortunately, it seems this Vans recommendation to avoid spins in the -6 leads to apprehension about using a -6 for aerobatics, especially competition, given that a spin is required in the most basic category. But competition spins never exceed 1 1/2 turns, so this fully-developed state would never be experienced. But then if you are inexperienced or uncomfortable with spins in your airplane, it's not a good idea to be doing aerobatics in the first place. There's a lot of fear to begin with on the subject of spins, and given that most pilots are not comfortable with, nor have extensive experience with spins, Van's recommendation is probably a good one for the average pilot, on their own, not in a structured training environment with an experienced and qualified instructor.

That being said, since there's nothing unsafe about spinning a -6, to avoid them is to acknowledge that there's a gap in your experience/comfort level in your airplane throughout its performance envelope. This alone would motivate me to get the training needed to become comfortable and competant enough to explore the full flight envelope. For the aerobatic pilot, advanced spin training as first mentioned above (inverted, etc.) is extremely valuable. After this type of training, it's highly unlikely you'd bat an eye at spinning your -6 any number of revolutions.

[n5lp]

Originally Posted by sandifer

...Unfortunately, it seems this Vans recommendation to avoid spins in the -6 leads to apprehension about using a -6 for aerobatics...

I realize that some of these recommendations change over time but will note that my mid-1990s RV-6 builder's manual recommends against spins of more than 2 turns but does not recommend to avoid spins.

[jrs14855]

The quotes that Larry posted sound very standard. The accelerated spin description is just as I would expect. One interesting thing about the accelerated spin(right rudder entry), after the stick is moved well forward to accelerate the spin, if you let go of the stick while still holding full right rudder, the stick will move back all by itself. The rate of rotation will slow, but will still remain faster than the rate in the first couple turns. As full left rudder is applied, the stick will move forward on its own to about neutral elevator.
The question with the RV6- worst case scenario- 0 320 with wood prop, two 220# occupants with lightweight chutes, where is the cg????
The Cessna 150/152 will not always do a hands off spin recovery.
Many many years ago my then mentor said "Tyrone will be here to fly with you tomorrow in the Sukhoi. He is a very experienced aerobatic pilot but he is self taught. I've found that self taught aerobatic pilots really don't know much about spins". Bullseye!!!

[ChiefPilot]

I've wondered about this as well, especially since my -6A has the later vertical stab / rudder from the -8 instead of the shorter flavor found on the classic -6/6A.