FSDO says Experimentals don't need Transponder checks, no IFR, Must have TSO equipmnt

Walt · #1 02-26-2011, 07:23 AM

I applied for a repair station certificate 6 months ago and after just 2 meetings recently with the local FAA FSDO I was basically thrown out of the office.

Things were going ok until I brought up experimental aircraft and how I expected them to be a large part of my clientele. After that things rapidly deteriorated until they finally said they were cancelling my application do to my challenging them on the regs and not complying with their requests. Some of "regs" according to them are:

1) Experimental aircraft do not need 91.411 or 91.413 certification
2) Repair stations cannot perform 91.411 or 91.413 checks on experimental aircraft.
3) Experimental aircraft cannot fly in controlled airspace.
4) Experimental aircraft cannot fly IFR.
5) Experimental aircraft must have TSO equipment.
6) You will not allowed test any non TSO equipment.
6) You must certify aircraft per 91.205 if you do a 91.411 check.

I have a meeting scheduled with the FSDO manager to discuss further but anticipate this will probably not fix things as I "assume" he will support his PAI who told me all this baloney. I am currently seeking advice from groups like AEA and EAA to help resolve. If anyone has any suggestions or contacts that may be able to help I would appreciate your forwarding me that info.

LifeofReiley · #2 02-26-2011, 07:28 AM

Where do they find these clowns?

This lack of knowledge within the FAA FSDO office should be grounds for termination... Like that will ever happen. The FSDO guy I happen to be so lucky to get only screwed up my paperwork THREE times before my repairman cert was delivered, and I even told him in advance that his information was wrong. I finally contacted Oklahoma, done right in 3-4 days.

RV6_flyer · #3 02-26-2011, 07:33 AM

You are heading down the correct path elevating to the supervisor / manager.

EAA Randy Hansen and Joe Norris can also help with contacts. Joe knows the regulations inside out.

IMHO, we need to get the FAA involved to FIRE the individual inspector that does not know the regulations.

See PM for email address for Randy and Joe.

hydroguy2 · #4 02-26-2011, 08:29 AM

Dang, I didn't realize my FSDO jerk got transferred to Texas.

joking aside, best of luck to you getting this resolved. and I agree contact Joe Norris EAA, he helped me a bunch. I'll PM you his contact info.

8CW · #5 02-26-2011, 08:40 AM

What Gary and Reiley suggested will probably yield results. However, if all else fails, you can always enlist the help of an aviation friendly representative or senator.

JonJay · #6 02-26-2011, 08:42 AM

I recently met with our local FSDO in an ill fated effort to grease the tracks for my AP testing. He insisted that experimental aircraft construction hours where not useable. After much discussion he was nice enough to look through the regs and, low and behold, it specifically states that they are useable.
He said to bring my paper work, repairmans certificate and other documentation in and whomever was on the RED Line that day would be the judge. Evidently the inspectors rotate through each day and the RED Line is the person for that day who gets all of the GA calls.
They really seem to hate GA and specifically Experimental GA. They seem to go out of their way to discourage us rather than help us.

Daver · #7 02-26-2011, 01:48 PM

My recent experience with the local FSDO was good.

In inspecting my plane (saving me about $500 for a DAR), they were thorough and helpful.

They spotted a few things that needed fixing and after they were fixed, I got my special airworthiness certificate.

Last week I got my repairman certificate.

I guess I got lucky....

Dave
-9A

DonFromTX · #8 02-26-2011, 02:03 PM

My last experience with a FSDO was very good as well, friendly, cooperative, willing to help. Of course he is also my baby brother so was probably afraid I would beat him up!

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daver

My recent experience with the local FSDO was good.

In inspecting my plane (saving me about $500 for a DAR), they were thorough and helpful.

They spotted a few things that needed fixing and after they were fixed, I got my special airworthiness certificate.

Last week I got my repairman certificate.

I guess I got lucky....

Dave
-9A

Jack Tyler · #9 02-26-2011, 02:11 PM

"...whomever was on the RED Line that day would be the judge. Evidently the inspectors rotate through each day and the RED Line is the person for that day who gets all of the GA calls."

I have limited but recent experience with a S Florida FSDO (multiple booth visits while at the Sebring Expo in Jan) and the above statement lines up nicely with what I saw. Four fellows had 'booth duty' and each was uncomfortably put in the position of trying to answer my Q's - inaccurately - simply because of the dynamics involved: they wore the ID's and official shirts, and no doubt felt responsible for being the expert info source on whomever showed up/whatever topic came up. As my pushbacks persisted, they eventually volunteered the fact that only one of them was knowledgeable about Experimental a/c and he would be returning to the booth at X hours. Sure enough, he was very knowledgeable and had sensible, direct A's to my Q's...but that wouldn't have been the outcome if I was at their office and being 'helped' by the duty FSDO rep.

Rather than looking at this is grounds for firing any FSDO employee who doesn't know soup to nuts about Experimentals, I look at it as a very normal circumstance in any large organization, where information is often compartmentalized. My sense is that we just have to winnow our way into/thru the FSDO tactically to find the right guy(s)...and if none of them are there, then work up the chain of command.

Walt: Re: useful resources you might consider tapping, I'd suggest you might also consider chatting with one of the technical counselors at AOPA. They may have some helpful insights on this scenario; I've been impressed with the Experimental-related info I've picked up there (unlike some of their on-line webpage references).

Good luck to you.

Jack

Christopher Murphy · #10 02-26-2011, 05:59 PM

They should have an inspector generals office! I can't count how many BS things I have had to do to satisfy some Inspector Dork.
ie. go through 10 years of log entries and cross out the word "part"
even though the FSDO example of the log entry contained the word "part"
( inspector at an airshow don't comply/don't fly.)
Requests for air race waivers that get lost over and over again until you send it registered mail and then it gets lost in the office.

Years ago the POI for the state patrol flight dept. made them take brand new c-182s and change the panel from the standard T to some sutpid arangement that he thought was the way it should be.

Its the government... were here to help...not.

CM