IFR Nav Question

lmb118 · #1 02-23-2011, 08:34 AM

I am about midway through my IFR training and need some advise on intersection holds. I can fly them on a sim with 2 VORs, but the problem is my plane has just 1 nav. I know; lots of twisting of the OBS.
Are there any short cuts or tricks to doing this in the real world?
I have a panel mount gps (vfr) and a 496 both with the intersections in the data base for "situational awareness" but I expect those to fail for the check ride.

Learning,
Lynne

pierre smith · #2 02-23-2011, 09:04 AM

...use what you have...the 496 is an aid you can use to know when to start your turn at the intersection, while the nav keeps you on the prescribed radial. During the check ride, if he fails the 496 you're gonna be pretty busy twisting knobs

Best,

cfiidon · #3 02-23-2011, 09:35 AM

1. Track using one VOR, use the 496 and quickly verify it with changing the VOR. This would show the examiner that you will "trust yet verify".

2, If during the check ride, the examiner fails the 496, resort to twisting and tuning the other. Do the best you can. If you have already done a couple of turns then your timing will help you out. The hold area is HUGE (think fast moving jet). As long as you stay on the protected side sloppy counts just fine.

3. If you feel brave, when assigned an intersection hold say "unable". In a real world situation, this would be an acceptable response if you felt that accepting an intersection hold with one VOR would be overwhelming and in your opinion as PIC you are "unable" to safely accomplish it. It's easier with a flip flop nav radio but tough with a mechanical, such as an old KX-170. During the check ride, if you explained that you'll give it a try, but you know about the "unable" card, the examiner will take it as you being knowledgeable.

4. If radar is available, ask ATC to verify intersection crossing.

5. Many ways to skin that cat...

Don

DBone · #4 02-23-2011, 10:55 AM

Don echoes my thoughts... Before the flight, talk to your examiner. Tell him what equipment you have in the airplane, and ask him to go over what you're going to do in the air. You will no doubt have to do a partial panel approach of some kind, but I doubt he will ask you to do a partial panel intersection hold.

Like Don said, in real life, if you were partial panel and got an instruction to hold, you would say "unable." The old "real men can fly IFR without a GPS" mentality is a bit overdone sometimes. If in IMC and your 496 failed, I would tell each controller that you are without a GPS. Unless you are flying into really busy airspace, controllers are going to give you vectors and help you out.

Good luck on your check ride!

Dave

Sig600 · #5 02-23-2011, 11:11 AM

I spent many years as a CFII and I never had a student need to do an intersection hold on a practical (at least not as described). Unless the practical test standards have changed, you just need to demonstrate holding entry... which can be completed with a procedure turn on an approach, or holding pattern after a missed approach.

Either way, the goal of the hold is to 1.) stay to the protected side and 2.) make out bound adjustments to attain a 1 minute inbound leg. I would avoid using the 496 even as an aide as it's not enroute legal (on the test, not in real world ops).

If you do find yourself in an intersection hold that does not have DME to reference, then yes you'll be doing a lot of twisting. Just remember that EVERYTIME you change the freq you have to identify the source again. So leave the two freqs in the flip/flop, and the ID on your audio panel turned up. By the way, if you slow to max conserve speed (say 90 knots) this will be a lot easier. You most definatley can use the GPS to determine winds aloft to help you out. You shouldn't have to demonstrate more than your ability to enter the hold. Your DE is a real *** if he makes you do all of this!!!!

vasrv7a · #6 02-23-2011, 11:15 AM

usually intersections (a fix) will also show distance from a navaid. you should be able to use the distance from the navaid to identify the fix and hold. I did my hold that way this past Sunday (2/20/11) and passed my check ride!!

Good luck.

Victor

Sig600 · #7 02-23-2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vasrv7a

usually intersections (a fix) will also show distance from a navaid. you should be able to use the distance from the navaid to identify the fix and hold. I did my hold that way this past Sunday (2/20/11) and passed my check ride!!

Good luck.

Victor

Not all intersections are defined via DME. While there may be a "leg length" donoted on the chart, unless properly labled you can not legally hold off distance.

Case in point:

Holding at LIMMO, assuming that little arrow wasn't there, you couldn't define the intersection off of the leg length of 20. You would have to use the two radials.

HYZER however is only defined by DME, so unless you have DME (or an enroute GPS) on board, you can't identify that either... "legally."

Brantel · #8 02-23-2011, 12:37 PM

What kind of Nav do you have?

vasrv7a · #9 02-23-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sig600

Not all intersections are defined via DME. While there may be a "leg length" donoted on the chart, unless properly labled you can not legally hold off distance.

Case in point:

Holding at LIMMO, assuming that little arrow wasn't there, you couldn't define the intersection off of the leg length of 20. You would have to use the two radials.

HYZER however is only defined by DME, so unless you have DME (or an enroute GPS) on board, you can't identify that either... "legally."

Based on what you have said, can you legally hold at NUCIS because distance looks to be the only way that the fix is identified?

Thanx for your explanations.

Victor

John Clark · #10 02-23-2011, 01:11 PM

Lynne,

It all depends on the examiner, but in most cases simple is better. The more equipment available, the more failures you are going to have and more questions will be asked. In your case, I would suggest getting comfortable doing single VOR holds. In my experience, examiners will only get tough when they sense weakness. Many times I have been given holding instructions on a checkride and before we get to the fix the examiner will ask something like "What kind of entry are you going to do?" or "Which way are you going to turn?" If you answer the question without breaking a sweat, you will never have to enter the hold. Blow the response and you will get to fly every entry in the book.

Relax, never rush, and enjoy your new "ticket."

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA