Deltahawk article

[cjensen]

Nice find Milt! Would make a funny lookin' nose on an RV though.

[mdredmond]

Originally Posted by N395V

Have never seen this before

Oh yeah, that's a cool engine. Listen to it run in the test bench video. Hardly makes any noise at all.

[Mike S]

I first saw the Zoche enging at Oshkosh '91, again at '95, and '98. It was not there in '04, or if so well hidden.

This thing seems to be destined to be a "tinkerers dream", probably never destined to go into production, IMHO.

Like so many other alternates to the "Traditional" A/C engine, this thing grabs you by the imagination and takes a good hold of yur attention, but it always weems that the production model is just a little beyond reach.

Reminds me of an article Rex Taylor wrote years ago about the "Noble Gas" engine.

I will keep my eyes open, and wish them sucess, but will hold onto my $$$$until they have PRODUCTION engines in the field, and have developed a track record.

Ditto Dynacam, Deltahawk----(although I think they have probably got the best chance of success of all of them), Stearling cycle engines, Scotch yoke engines, and a host of others I have followed over the years, (including a couple in this forum in the last few months) and of course the Moller Sky Car, with its direct drive ducted fan Wankles--8 of them!!!

Mike

[Deuskid]

Originally Posted by ship

no argument there. however, the main benefit of JetA in aerodiesels is that it is more highly refined. The main benefit of JetA is prolonged life of the fuel pumps.

Can't speak for the other engines, but DeltaHawk has tested all fuels and found JetA (with small amount of lubricity additive) to be best for the health of the high pressure fuel pumps.

No doubt there will be those who burn diesel nonetheless. Temps below 40F are risky, which means altitude is an issue on all but the warmest days.

Hi Ship -

I wonder if you've lived with a diesel using TDI, PD or CR fuel distribution and a trubo? I have. Not in an A-C but in an auto. Here in the mid west it drops way below 40 and nary a problem. Folks up in Canada don't have a problem with temp either. Much of the fuel flows back to the tank heated, and with glow plugs I've never had a problem staring either of my diesels. Some put engine warmers on theirs but it really isn't necessary. When it is below zero it probably takes 10 seconds for the glow plugs to cycle and then the engine probably runs rough for 2-3 seconds but that is it...

now, I will grant you, bad fuel will cause you problems but bad gas in gassers will cause you problems too.

There are centeen [spelling?] boosters if you are worried about lubercation [but Jet A is worse than D2 in that regard] and Bio-D has wonderful lubercating capabilities. Guys who get jet-a free on the tdiclub.com site either don't use it or use additives to make it 'better' for their cars. Jet A may be cleaner [right now] but really it is all just various kinds of kerosene and come 7-1 I bet D2 will be as refined as jet a.

There are several auto diesels that would make wonderful conversions [toyota, volvo, the boxer engine....] but you still have all the conversion headaches. I think one designed or already adapted to a-c makes the most practical approach.

cheers,

John

[Deuskid]

Originally Posted by ship

Thielert and SMA are certified for operation on diesel, but they don't recommend flying on diesel fuel. DH will most likely follow same path since certification effort is so difficult, i.e. you get as much as you can during the process.

fwiw, i worked with deltahawk for 2 years; still in close contact with the company. also did the setup for FAA certification effort. diesel is NOT favored by FAA for flight for these same reasons. Thielert and SMA were certified in Europe; FAA is still not convinced diesel fuel is worthy of certification but is willing to listen. FAA must accept European certification and vice versa.

otherwise, yes, the engine will happily burn almost anything as long as TBO reliability isn't a requirement.

according to Thielert's website [I have a link in the other thead and I linked this thread to that earlier] D2 is recommended.

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by ship

it's not loud at all. actually about the same as lyco. slightly more "mechanical" noise at idle but no knocking or loud exhaust

The thing to remember is the engine uses a supercharger (for starting) and a turbosupercharger (for normal flight.) The turbo really takes the "bite" out of the exhaust. They also have been running a small muffler post-turbo.
Bill Jepson

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by Mike S

I first saw the Zoche enging at Oshkosh '91, again at '95, and '98. It was not there in '04, or if so well hidden.

This thing seems to be destined to be a "tinkerers dream", probably never destined to go into production, IMHO.

Like so many other alternates to the "Traditional" A/C engine, this thing grabs you by the imagination and takes a good hold of yur attention, but it always weems that the production model is just a little beyond reach.

Reminds me of an article Rex Taylor wrote years ago about the "Noble Gas" engine.

I will keep my eyes open, and wish them sucess, but will hold onto my $$$$until they have PRODUCTION engines in the field, and have developed a track record.

Ditto Dynacam, Deltahawk----(although I think they have probably got the best chance of success of all of them), Stearling cycle engines, Scotch yoke engines, and a host of others I have followed over the years, (including a couple in this forum in the last few months) and of course the Moller Sky Car, with its direct drive ducted fan Wankles--8 of them!!!

Mike

The Zoche has been, "in development," for so long it's absurd. Zoche strikes me as a well to do engineer doing a retirement project. Zoche has also stated he won't sell to experimentals! (I always find this comment assinine in that there are more exp's registered than almost anything else!) The design and concept look great but there isn't even a "projected" sales date.
Compared to Zoche the Deltahawk development could be considered instant. The engine builder that doesn't consider the experimental market is designing for failure. Until Cirrus Design (which started with homebuilts) hit stride recently Vans was the manufacturer with the most new registrations for years. (prop driven) That was true even for several years AFTER Cessna started LP production again! The Deltahawk is far and away the most promising of the new diesels. When they wised up and did an inverted version I thought that they will/could/should succeed. Hpoe they make out well.
Bill Jepson

[N395V]

Does not Deltahawk have one flying in a velocity and isn't it offered by velocity as one of the engine choices?

I Think a properly cowled Zoche on an RV would look really cool.

[ship]

Originally Posted by Deuskid

Hi Ship -

I wonder if you've lived with a diesel using TDI, PD or CR fuel distribution and a trubo? I have. Not in an A-C but in an auto. Here in the mid west it drops way below 40 and nary a problem....

Hi John,
Ironically, I drive a TDI and a Duramax (GMC). I also live in the "cold" country.

No glow plugs on DeltaHawk, although it HAS started at low temps with some cranking (see website). I was there for that one. It was seriously cold outside that day.

The diesel at the gas station is conditioned for temps, i.e. winter diesel & summer diesel. Winter diesel will "fly" just fine UNLESS you get upstairs where it's -20F. Summer diesel doesn't have the ant-gel conditioners....not something to take lightly at higher altitudes even in the summer.

In December, the D2 in Alaska is different blend than D2 in Omaha, which is different than D2 in Atlanta. All for temps.

Re lubricity: yes, JetA is worse than D2, hence the recommendation to add lubricity conditioner to JetA when filling up.

I have no argument with flying on diesel per se. DeltaHawk can run on all kero fuels, but the engine was designed to be run on JetA as the primary fuel. Having been there first-hand, I can say with confidence there are a lot of good reasons to run on JetA in an aircraft application. That goes for all aero-diesels. As always, economics and logistics will dictate what people actually put in their tanks.

[ship]

Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV

The thing to remember is the engine uses a supercharger (for starting) and a turbosupercharger (for normal flight.) The turbo really takes the "bite" out of the exhaust. They also have been running a small muffler post-turbo.
Bill Jepson

turbos do reduce exhaust noise in some applications, although hearing a Formula 1 race engine at 19,000 rpm demonstrates it's not always the case.

there's no muffler on the DeltaHawk, just a straight pipe from turbo to cowl. test engines run with no pipe on turbo exhaust. somewhat loud but WAY lower than prop noise at full power.