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  #11  
Old 01-12-2011, 10:38 AM
rjcthree's Avatar
rjcthree rjcthree is offline
 
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Default I'd write the check.

I've worked with the NTSB on a few crashes, and been a sworn panel member on an NTSB hearing. Based on that, I have developed tremendous respect for the NTSB staff, the process they employ to reach conclusions and reccommendations.

The game of 'safety' is one of directional correctness combined with effacy factors. Taken to the extreme, stupid things, like the motorized seat belts of the 80's, happen. Or worse. And flying is inherently dangerous.

NTSB has data that they researched themselves. They don't guess. There is no 'just because'. All the objections I've really heard here is 'just because I say so'. The thread is filled with the common myths of SRS technology. It's a free market, and so forth, so do what you will. If SRS technologies were available for me to install today in my 9A, I'd write the check.

Just my $0.02, worth what you paid.

Rick 90432
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:24 AM
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Bob Kuykendall Bob Kuykendall is offline
 
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As others have pointed out, it is the NTSB's job to recommend safety features like airbags. And it is the FAA's job to roll their eyes and say, "Yeah, right. Get real."

However, I think I can safely predict with some certainty that sometime in the future active restraint systems such as airbags will be required for all new type-certificated aircraft. At issue is that, plain and simple, airbags in cars work. Overall, they save lives and reduce the severity of injury. They make it practical, not just possible, for cars to be lighter and more fuel efficient while still offering good crash protection for their occupants.

I think I can equally safely predict that this requirement will not apply to existing aircraft, to aircraft being produced under current type certificates, or to experimental aircraft. The FAA has a long history of grandfathering in existing products, and I think this will be no different.

Airbag technology is being rapidly refined and extended. These days airbags built into seatbelts and interior moldings make possible substantial improvements in side impact protection. This refinement is pushing the prices of airbag systems and components down into the range where they are reasonably affordable. It is also making these systems smarter and more versatile, to the degree where retrofitting them into existing vehicles is coming into the realm of possibility.

Personally, I used to resist airbags. I, like many others, thought it was a technology I did not need. Then I had a car with an airbag, and I had to come to terms with it. Then the car posted an SRS error light, and I had to uderstand, troubleshoot, and fix it. The three subsequent cars with airbags (plural, not just for the driver) have had zero issues with their SRS systems. Finally, my wife had a head-on collision in an airbag-equipped sports car. She came away with minor injuries that I am quite sure would have devastating if not terminal were it not for the SRS system. Now I'm a believer.

Of course, airbags are not without their risks and dangers. Fortunately, these are relatively simple, and easily understood. Unfortunately, people regularly disregard them, and do so to the peril of themselves and those in their charge. Also, it is clear that airbags are not effective crash protection against a variety of impacts that are common in airplanes but virtually non-existant in cars.

For those of you who say that in the good old days of Detroit Iron you didn't need airbags, have a look at this video in which the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety stages a 40 MPH frontal offset collision between a 2009 Chevy Malibu and a 1959 Chevy Bel Air:

http://www.iihs.org/video.aspx/info/50thcrash

(For more info: http://www.iihs.org/50th/default.html)

Thanks, Bob K.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:41 AM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Default

I'll take the NTSB's side over the FAA's 99% of the time. Look at thier mission statements.


That said, lets be honest. An RV isn't much more than a beer can with a motor (same applies to most LIGHT civil aircraft). Hitting anything solid above about 60 knots, air bag or not, is going to hurt.
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2011, 12:36 PM
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rv7boy rv7boy is offline
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Default "air bags"

This discussion is interesting to me. I approached the
PHP Code:
Safe-Airoops I don't know where I "remembered" that company! :o 
Am-Safe folks at Oshkosh one year and they "stiff-armed" me with the comment, "We have no plans to sell these for use in the EXPERIMENTAL market."

They mumbled something about needing to fix and control the design configuration, so I guess I could see their point.

I still have an interest in them as a very good friend has them in his recently purchased 182.
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Last edited by rv7boy : 01-13-2011 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Changed Safe-Air to Am-Safe
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  #15  
Old 01-12-2011, 01:59 PM
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Default Cubcrafters offers them as an option.

Just another data point from a company I greatly respect.
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2011, 05:44 PM
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Mike D Mike D is offline
 
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Very interesting topic. I am learning a lot and have almost changed my mind.

I am sure the NTSB has our safety in mind. I am happy they do what they do. I am much safer because their reports have made me conscious of things to look out for. I am happy to have them around. But, even my mother was not always right in looking out for my best interests. So I am just asking questions to learn for myself, and hope they don?t mandate I get an air bag if I determine it is not in my best interests. The GA industry is dying because of liability costs and over regulation. Just my opinion.

If the air bags do tighten the seat belts as Pierre said, this this is a completely different effect than what we see in cars. This would be interesting.

Does anybody know how the G-forces in acro have any effect on the air bag sensor? How about a bad landing? Do the same forces that cause your ELT to go off deploy the air bag?

Thanks for the video Bob. The video is great to see the improvements that have been made in cars. Notice how the A-pillar completely folds in the ?59. Also the dash is crushed into the cabin. This does not happen on the ?09. I would guess the crush zones and lap belt account for a lot of the survivability of the ?09. But as was said, ?an RV isn't much more than a beer can with a motor?.

There are other ways to improve safety. The smart car has an egg shaped cabin to help with the survivability of a crash. F1 cars also have a survival pod like structure. This type of thing may be better than an air bag for a plane. Or how about HANS as used in F1? (Head and Neck Support system) But not sure I am going to wear a helmet while flying.

Guess the best thing is not to crash.

On a side note: We have AOPA states we have 600K pilots in the US but WP article said only 200K GA planes?? Must be a lot of renters, military, or commercial.
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:18 PM
LarryT LarryT is offline
 
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Default How many of the 600K...

...are active pilots? The license is valid until you can't pass a medical. But lots of the 600K may have stopped flying of their own volition.

LarryT
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  #18  
Old 01-13-2011, 12:23 AM
mcencula mcencula is offline
 
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Default Good idea

Anyone that understands physics knows it's good to decrease the acceleration of an impact as much as possible. Airbags have been proven effective at accomplishing that. I actually contacted AmSafe and Van's just the other day to see if a system were available. It's not yet, but hopefully they work on it.
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  #19  
Old 01-13-2011, 05:28 AM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Default Here's a good read and a picture of an activated airbag....

...in an Air Tractor. According to their site, all new Air Tractors will have this airbag as standard equipment:

http://www.airtractor.com/amsafe-air...ctor-ag-planes

Best,
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  #20  
Old 01-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Ted RV8 Ted RV8 is offline
 
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Default

Went to an AOPA safety seminar last night and a representative from AmSafe was there. He gave a short presentation on the air bags.

Please don't throttle me if I state incorrectly as this is the best I remember it. I wasn't there for the air bag issue. Anyway he stated.

The airbags for airplanes were using compressed helium to fill.

They would be a shoulder harness mounted airbag.

They were looking into experimentals, specifically RV's. There biggest concern was air bag deploying during aerobatics. They have tested their activating sensors and deploy at 9g's consistantly so felt they would be OK. RV's would be the first of the experimentals with airbag availability.

The biggest push he felt was going to go forward by the FAA was for mandatory shoulder belts. Stated that 85% survival rate from crash with shoulder harness and only 15% survival rate for lap belt only.

Ted

Last edited by Ted RV8 : 01-14-2011 at 12:10 PM.
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