Smoking Airplanes Smoke System

[rvmills]

Originally Posted by Greg Arehart

Ron,
Great idea for traffic visibility!

The sticker John puts on the pump actually adds the term VCAS (Visual Collision Avoidance System). Look right under the Smoking Airplane figure on the pic below. I think he and Greg "Coach" Nelson came up with that one! I may label my switch VCAS!

Originally Posted by Greg Arehart

Can I get colored smoke?

Originally Posted by Don Patrick

I think there are additives that can colour the smoke..some of the European aerobatic military formation teams use color smoke. Cheers,Don

We discussed this a bit as well. As discussed above, it appears that dies added to smoke oil do nothing. I hadn't heard about the additives that Don described, but I have only seen jet teams use colored smoke, so it may be a different method of generating smoke (don't know what I don't know here!). Would love to figure it out, 'as we have a Raven trio of a Red, a White and a Blue airplane, and it would be fun to do a show with matching smoke. We have the white covered!

Originally Posted by Don Patrick

What's really nice with a smoke system is to have the the switch in the control stick. We have it at our fingertips while we fly as it's hooked into the firing trigger of our T-6 control sticks. Nice and slick!

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

The complete kit does come with a small push to activate switch suitable for installing in a stick. Or by looking at the wiring diagram, it would be easy for even me to adapt an existing stick switch/trigger to perform the same function.

I elected to keep mine on the panel since I only have a radio PTT switch on my stick now.

As Ron said, John's kit comes with the 3 position switch, and provisions to wire a momentary remote switch, be it on the panel like Ron's, or in the stick grip. I was going to put one on one of the gray buttons on the top my Tosten grip, but I prefer a push-on, push off (non-momentary) switch, and I think that would have taken an additional relay. Just didn't want to have to hold the switch on while in formation. The SPST switch near the throttle works well for me, but I may try to figure out the additional relay, and play with it later for the stick grip, 'cause that is pretty slick, like Don said. If I had a tandem with a throttle quadrant, I think I'd try to put the on-off switch on the thumb side of the throttle. Lots of options!!

Its a pretty fun project! Greg, if you decide to go for it, we can crawl your airplane and figure out the custom details before you order!

OBTW, John has seen this thread, and wrote me a note thanking all of us for the positive discussion and remarks. Good guy (and still a wise guy!)

Cheers,
Bob

[sbarger24]

Greg and Bob,

If we all three install smoke systems we are going to have to practice writing things in the sky like the Breitling Watch people

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by rvmills

I prefer a push-on, push off (non-momentary) switch, and I think that would have taken an additional relay. Just didn't want to have to hold the switch on while in formation. The SPST switch near the throttle works well for me, but I may try to figure out the additional relay, and play with it later for the stick grip, 'cause that is pretty slick, like Don said.

I am not a electrics expert but why would it require another relay? PUSH ON/PUSH OFF versus holding the current button down the same time seems equivalent. Verify with John.

My experience with smoke amounts to about 30 seconds. Currently I am using Conosol 260. It was about $17/gallon from a RC hobby shop. I found a guy locally who will provide it in 5 gallon pails for $10/gallon.

Supposedly the Conosol 260 is equivalent to Super-Dri. I don't know at this point. I am not planning on using diesel despite the far cheaper cost and easy availability.

[Greg Arehart]

Another question: how long does a gallon of smoke oil last?

greg

[Ron Lee]

Greg, I believe that I read 4.5 - 5 minutes on the 3.5 gallon tank.

I have no real world data to back that up and may never have it.

[pazmanyflyer]

Originally Posted by Greg Arehart

Another question: how long does a gallon of smoke oil last?greg

Website states 5+ min for the 3.5 gal tank. (3.5 gallons at .8 gal/min = 4.375 min)

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by pazmanyflyer

Website states 5+ min for the 3.5 gal tank. (3.5 gallons at .8 gal/min = 4.375 min)

I may need six months or so to have a better grasp how often I use it. But in a typical cross country flight I may get a traffic callout by ATC perhaps twice each direction. 5-10 seconds of smoke (VCAS mode) each time is still less than a minute. Even half full, I could still do all those plus an overhead approach and one on take-off.

Thus my choice of the 3.5 gallon unit. Other users can provide better guidance.

[WillyEyeBall]

Would like to ditto the accolays of Smoking airplanes systems and the tremendous support by the owner John. I ordered the 3.5 gallon tank with a flop tube for inverted flight and single nozzle injector. I also have a clever electrical engineer friend that built a "magic box" that will dash the smoke automatically when the Gs are zero and negative. Here's a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVMRCWuzuf4 Since I will not get below 2500' AGL for acro practice, the smoke system makes it easier for viewers from the ground. Finding smoke oil is definitely a problem in this area.

[rvmills]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

I am not a electrics expert but why would it require another relay? PUSH ON/PUSH OFF versus holding the current button down the same time seems equivalent. Verify with John.

Ron,

Jon and I talked a bit about this as we crawled around the plane.

Plan A was to install the 3 way switch in the panel as you have it, and wire in the inboard gray button on my Tosten as the remote. However, that button is a momentary switch, so I'd have to hold it on. Just don't want to do that in a maneuvering formation.

I figured I'd have to wire in a latching relay in-line so that first push is on, next push is off. Not sure what part to get, as I went to plan B due to time constraints (the Nellis Airshow was coming up, and I wanted to be ready...just kept it simple for the initial install!)

The avionics guy on the field says I ought to take apart my stick grip and change the gray switch to a latching switch. I think I'll call Kevin at Tosten first (he's an RV guy too!), but its a possibility.

The toggle works well, and is easy in formation. Also easily changeable to the 3 way/remote set up.

If anyone reading this has a good solution for changing the stick grip switch or an appropriate in-line relay, please let me know...thanks! Will be looking at Allied, Mouser, and Sandy's catelogs in the meantime!

Originally Posted by WillyEyeBall

I also have a clever electrical engineer friend that built a "magic box" that will dash the smoke automatically when the Gs are zero and negative. Here's a link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVMRCWuzuf4

Willy, that was a neat mod...now you can have contests with yourself to see how long you can stand it inverted..."let's see if I can do 20 dashed lines today!"

Also...Greg got a peek at the VCAS capabilities today, as he departed Stead and I entered on the 45. He picked me up right away!

Cheers,
Bob

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by rvmills

Also...Greg got a peek at the VCAS capabilities today, as he departed Stead and I entered on the 45. He picked me up right away!

Bob, that actually may be a far better use (reduced risk of mid-air) use of smoke than I had considered. Many times I have come into the pattern and had to find others departing...or vice versa.

Your switch issue is different than I expected. I assumed that you had the push on/push off type switch already in the stick.

Tomorrow I will get some data to see if I need to repitch my Catto FP prop. I suspect that I will need to use the smoke to enhance safety.

I added a picture in my original post showing the 90 degree adapter I placed between the anti-siphon valve and the bulkhead fitting.