Which references to use for finger and close trail formations?

[ao.frog]

Hi.

I'm wondering which references you guys use when flying fingertip and close trail formations?

Up until now, we've used three different ones and the one we've using now seems to work best: outboard aileron-hinge to tip of cowling, wing TE splits wing in two and opposite elevator just visible behind rudder.

The one on the pic below is the first one we used but that one placed the wingman too far aft: spinner to tip of wheelpant and opposite elevator just visible behind rudder.






For close trail, we're using the upper surface of the wing JUST visible and nose-tail separation.

By the way; I remember from the Airforce-flying that when we flew box-formations, # 2 and # 3 moved slighly aft of the normal finger-position so the box would look better. (more symetric)
Do you use different finger-ref's when flying box?

Looking forward to hear from you people....

[PCHunt]

And another question: What speed, or what power setting does lead use when leading a formation, realizing that it might have to be tempered by the configuration of the wing aircraft.

[Kahuna]

Team RV Formation Training Guide.http://www.teamrv.us/coppermine/albu...ingguide2a.pdf

[tadsargent]

The references are slightly different for each RV model. The sight picture for the newer large 7 rudder is no elevator should be visable, if you see it move forward. The 8/6 models you should see 2 inches.

Enjoy.

[ronschreck]

Originally Posted by ao.frog

Hi.

I'm wondering which references you guys use when flying fingertip and close trail formations?

Up until now, we've used three different ones and the one we've using now seems to work best: outboard aileron-hinge to tip of cowling, wing TE splits wing in two and opposite elevator just visible behind rudder.

The one on the pic below is the first one we used but that one placed the wingman too far aft: spinner to tip of wheelpant and opposite elevator just visible behind rudder.

For close trail, we're using the upper surface of the wing JUST visible and nose-tail separation.

By the way; I remember from the Airforce-flying that when we flew box-formations, # 2 and # 3 moved slighly aft of the normal finger-position so the box would look better. (more symetric)
Do you use different finger-ref's when flying box?

Looking forward to hear from you people....

Hi Alf,

You should have come to our recent formation clinic in North Carolina. You could have won the prize for "most distance traveled"to get there! I understand there are about six RV's in Norway now, so that's enough to start flying formation. I suggest you secure a copy of the T-34 Formation Manual and the RV Supplement to the manual. These two documents are what we use to train formation pilots at our clinics here in the USA.

In the meantime, the LINE should be established by lining up the outboard aileron hinge with the spinner and spaceing should be established by looking past the trailing edge of the rudder and just seeing the very tip of the outboard trailing edge of the opposite elevator. If you see more that about two inches of elevator you are too far out. As you progress you will be closer and will not see the opposite elevator. For formation aerobatics you should be just tight enough to NOT have wing overlap.



For close trail, put the tailwheel on the pilot's head or just look straight up the exhaust pipes and keep about 1/2 ship length back.




When you refer to "box" formation I think you mean a "diamond" with #4 in the slot. If you use the normal references (outboard aileron hinge on spinner) the slot man should see the same picture when he looks at #2 and #3. He will thus be back from the close trail position to form a good looking diamond.

Good luck with your formation training. Perhaps you can have a formation clinic in Norway. I would love to attend!

[Snowflake]

Other useful references:

On the side-by-side RV's, a good close-trail reference is the two tabs on the sides of the canopy (used to open the canopy). Both the tip-up and the slider have them in the same place at the back corner of the canopy. Placing the pilot's virtual head on the same level as those handles makes for a good position.

We use the same outboard hinge to front of cowling reference. Following a -9, because the wingspan is wider you need to come in a little bit, so try using the gap between the aileron and wingtip at the trailing edge (a little harder to see) with the tip of the spinner. That will give you the right line, then you can look where the outboard hinge is (easier to see) relative to the cowling and try to keep it there.

At the tail, we place the point on the elevator where the hinge line would "break through" if extended, vertically in line with the "valley" where the vertical stab meets the turtledeck. That works regardless of RV model... It normalizes for the different rudder/elevator shapes. Many of us have placed a little "diamond" of tape in a contrasting colour on the tips of our elevators.

[N941WR]

Alf,

If you can make it for the next Team RV formation clinic, you have a place to stay as we live close to Smokey, Stripes, and a few others. You can use my -9 but for some reason they don't think it makes a good formation ship.

I'm still trying to figure out if is because it is not acro, the longer wing & HS, or all of them combined.

[jclark]

Originally Posted by N941WR

Alf,

If you can make it for the next Team RV formation clinic, you have a place to stay as we live close to Smokey, Stripes, and a few others. You can use my -9 but for some reason they don't think it makes a good formation ship.

I'm still trying to figure out if is because it is not acro, the longer wing & HS, or all of them combined.

For normal formation, the plane does not need to be aerobatic.

The biggest "issue" I have found with flying the "9" in formation with the other 2-place RV's is the **WING**. The wing responds VERY differently in areas that matter a lot when you are close to another plane. And this is one of the things you get when trying to fly other "dissimilar" planes in formation.

I have flown a "9" next to my buddy Ken (RV6). He and I have a few hundred hours next to each other in the 6's and I can tell you it is a LOT more work for me to do as well when he is in a 6 and I am in a 9.

The wings just respond differently to power adds and bumps in the air.

Of course it can be done and fun can be had by all. It would probably be a lot more fun if all the planes are 9's.

Now for the Team RV airshow routine, we have addition "constraints" that we put on the planes to insure that we can do it safely and do it looking good.

There is no "hatin'" on the 9's. :-)

"CB"

[ao.frog]

... for the feedback and web-links guys. That will help alot.
Good to know the ref we've landed on (outb aileron-hinge to spinner and opposite elevator just visible) is the same that you guys are using.

The position with the tape on the extended hingeline was unknown to us! We'll try that one on the next ride and see how it works.

Yes, there are a number of flying RV's in Norway, but the problem is to have the pilots get together easily too. Norway is a loooong country; for example: if you put a pin on the very southern point (it's named "Lindesnes") and rotate the country 180* so the country points south instead of north, the end of the country will end up in Rome in Italy! That is across most of Europe...

Anyway; we're having alot of fun for now and that's what's it's all about, right?

Formation clinic in Norway? Great idea! And ofcourse it'd be great to have US-visitiors attending! I'll look into it and see if it'll be possible.

Bill; THANKS alot for the nice offer to stay with you AND use your plane! That was REALLY nice of you! We'll see what the future holds...

[vlittle]

Originally Posted by Snowflake

Other useful references:

... We use the same outboard hinge to front of cowling reference. Following a -9, because the wingspan is wider you need to come in a little bit, so try using the gap between the aileron and wingtip at the trailing edge (a little harder to see) with the tip of the spinner. That will give you the right line, then you can look where the outboard hinge is (easier to see) relative to the cowling and try to keep it there.
....

This actually keeps the inboard aileron hinge (or outboard flap hinge) right on the firewall. This is the same alignment as a Swift.

As for the comments about flying a -9 in formation with other RV's: It does seem like a lot more work because it's heavier in roll, but the biggest challenge is slowing down after the overhead break. Instead of slowing down to flap speed, I use a forward slip to bleed energy while keeping the airspeed up so that the following RV's (Swifts, Rockets) don't overrun me.

A constant speed prop would help here.

V