Firewall insulation

[DanH]

Originally Posted by hydroguy2

All I'm going by is the advertisement which says Firewall certified........

Can you share a brand name and supplier?

[L.Adamson]

Originally Posted by hydroguy2

We all have levels of risk we are willing to accept. If my firewall gets hot enough to cause this mat to be a problem I most likely already have a huge issues to deal with. My aluminum heatbox, pass thru's, rubber & plastic grommets and wiring will already be trying to kill me. YMMV

Being a furnace guy, such that I am; and looking at flames on a daily basis................it's my feeling also. If something is capable of putting out a 2000 degree blast at my firewall, then I've really got problems, such as a cowling & windscreen. Other than that, the main source of fuel, will be turned off at the fuel selector.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

[hydroguy2]

Dan, I appreciate your hard work and testing in this area, but:

The material I have came from a friend, I didn't buy it and I'm comfortable with my choice. It may or may not perform well in your tests and I don't need rake over the coals. So at this time, I respectfully decline.

[RVG8tor]

Hydroguy,

For those of use doing our own research, could you provide the brand name of the material you used. Not all of us what ceramic tile protection between us and the firewall and it would be nice to know of as many type of products available out there.

I am sure there are many that will read this post that would appreciate another product to consider. Don't mind the flames (pun intended) that you might get from the forums, a good pilot needs a thick skin.

I have already bought some material that is fiberglass with a PVC type cover, it is the stuff used to line the walls in military transport aircraft. My trouble is the material is tan in color and I decided on dark gray for my cockpit color.

Cheers

[vfrazier]

We carry several FAA approved items (and some with no approval) on our web store. While they may or may not survive Dan's flamethrower, I am quite pleased with their reasonably low cost, easy installation, and effectiveness at reducing the heat on my feet (and elsewhere) and reducing sound levels a bit. And they make a very tidy installation if you simply install then run a bead of high temp RTV around the edges. ProSeal works too.

Heat, Sound, Paint and trim

I think I've said it before, I applaud Dan H for making this a talked about topic. It should be given due consideration. Certainly, there are many builders (me included, years ago) who build their dream plane only to find out that they have hot feet, burnt cowlings, and other heat related problems that could have more easily been dealt with during construction.

[DanH]

Vince's "Heat Shield Mat", when attached to the engine side of the firewall, looks like a good product to reduce cabin heating under normal operating conditions. It will probably be a plus in the event of an engine compartment fire and certainly won't make it worse.

Comments about hot feet are total nonsense if you cover the engine side of the stainless firewall with an insulator and a reflector. I routinely remove my shoes in cruise flight, stick my feet through the rudder pedals, and rest them against the firewall. This is perfectly comfortable, wearing nothing but socks, in August, and I guarantee my cowl outlet temperatures are higher than 99% of the fleet.

Soundcoat M and Soundcoat CSU are FAR 25.853 materials and a very poor choice for firewall contact. When tested to the FAA firewall standard, similar materials have demonstrated the potential to be Death In A UPS Box.

§ 23.1191 Firewalls.

(f) Compliance with the criteria for fireproof materials or components must be shown as follows:

(1) The flame to which the materials or components are subjected must be 2,000 ±150 °F.

(2) Sheet materials approximately 10 inches square must be subjected to the flame from a suitable burner.

(3) The flame must be large enough to maintain the required test temperature over an area approximately five inches square.

(g) Firewall materials and fittings must resist flame penetration for at least 15 minutes.

§ 23.1182 Nacelle areas behind firewalls.

Components, lines, and fittings, except those subject to the provisions of §23.1351(e), located behind the engine-compartment firewall must be constructed of such materials and located at such distances from the firewall that they will not suffer damage sufficient to endanger the airplane if a portion of the engine side of the firewall is subjected to a flame temperature of not less than 2000 °F for 15 minutes.

[Karl.Kruger]

Originally Posted by hydroguy2

Karl, give me a call. I got a source for a enough Firewall insulation(FAA approved) for 5 planes. Might even get it delivered for free, as I have to bring the roll back to Helena one of these days.

Brian
980-1193cell

Hey Brian,
Thanks for the offer, I will give you a call, I keep hearing that you are about finished up, I have a ways to go but I would like to run over sometime and check out your project if you have time to show me. I will hold on to your number, mine is 431-5421. Talk to you soon.
Karl

[vfrazier]

My RV-4 and my Rocket were both very effective at feet roasting just from radiant engine heat. It became intolerable during the summer.

Not arguing with Dan, but if you're feet are roasting from radiant heat then the choices are either don't fly or add insulation. Unfortunately, there aren't any perfect insulation systems out there.

For me, I've added both insulation types that I mentioned earlier, carry an aqueous foam fire extinguisher, and usually have a chute on. I'm quite comfortable with my setup. And it's affordable.

I suppose another option might be that some of the industrial safety supply houses carry some very sexy foil faced fire boots, but I can't seem to get my head around wearing them to the airport.

"Death in a UPS box" might be a bit extreme and could be applied to virtually every component of an airplane under the right circumstances. You gotta think about and be comfortable with your choices.... and, sadly, they must be affordable since most of us don't have a Boeing budget.

Once again, I applaud Dan H for making this a talked about topic. It should be given due consideration.

YMMV

[SMO]

Originally Posted by vfrazier

"Death in a UPS box"

Not to speak for Dan, but using the wrong material on the inside of the firewall could easily result in incapacitation due to fumes before the actual fire became a problem.

I bought a 25' roll of ceramic fiber, a 25' roll of stainless foil, and some stainless tape which will do my firewall (on the engine side) and my front floor. Will be mechanically attached. Total cost was less than $300, perhaps somewhat spendy but ................

[DanH]

Orcotek, a high quality FAR 25.853 cabin wall insulation. Fiberglass batt with a plastic vapor barrier. Really good stuff to fill the spaces behind wall and door panels. Not so good when placed in contact with a hot firewall.




Soundex Firewall Mat, a black rubber foam with an aluminum foil face, and claimed to meet FAR 25.853. Night photo, so you don't get the see the boiling smoke. How would you like to be trapped in the cabin with this?



A far more suitable material, ordinary high temp ceramic batting, with no sizing or binder. The burner is running on the front side of the stainless firewall panel, exactly like in the previous photos. Well, not exactly like the previous photos....in this case the burner has been running for several minutes. Look close...the stainless sheet is glowing, but my hand is perfectly comfortable. No smoke, no flame. If you insist on placing insulation on the cabin side of your firewall, fold this into plain aluminum foil envelopes to contain airborne fiber, a lung cancer risk. Ordinary HD Reynolds Wrap from the grocery store will work fine. Use a mechanical attachment (no glue please).



Far, far better to insulate the engine side and protect the structure as well as your feet. This is 3 minutes into a burner run, an eternity if you have an engine compartment fire. The black heat target (simulating the soles of your shoes) is at 178F. The aluminum firewall angle and rivets are about 300F, meaning they continue to be structurally viable. You may be crying, but you're still flying. No fire extinguisher discharge required. Oh, and you actually had time to turn off the fuel tap.