VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > Safety
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 08-08-2010, 01:52 PM
TOAD TOAD is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
Default Preferred runway

I had to look this up but...
In the Airport/Facility Directory published by the FAA, Under Crest airpark (Kent) there is a remark saying:

Night Ops use Rwy 15, wind and weather permitting.

This is sort of like stating a preferred runway, but I had the wording wrong. My mistake.

I know this says Night Ops but I don't know why the instruction is there in the first place. I see no reason for it myself. There are trees all around anyway. If the runway lights disappear you are low!!!! This could be the reason for the instruction.... maybe.....

I had not looked at the instruction recently but simply know that the FBO people preferred runway 15 as it was closer to their end of the field. I know that the instructor will always land at the north given a choice. I will often land long from that direction myself just to keep everyone happy.
__________________
RV-7A - Flying
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-08-2010, 04:19 PM
rv7boy's Avatar
rv7boy rv7boy is offline
Forum Peruser
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Austinville, Alabama
Posts: 2,458
Default I have the solution...

All the pilots mentioned in the original scenarios should have to go through open heart surgery which requires a minimum 6 month waiting period which practically turns into 9-12 months minimum. The long waiting period of not being PIC plus the emotional trauma of "Will I ever get to fly again?" will result in pilots who have a different appreciation of their "privilege" (FAA terminology) to pilot an aircraft. Thus they will be more tolerant of other pilots' aggressive behavior and will be better citizens of the air.

Just my two cents...

Don

Successful open heart surgery in 2009 and now flying again!!!
__________________
Don Hull
RV-7 Wings
KDCU Pryor Field
Pilots'n Paws Pilot
N79599/ADS-B In and Out...and I like it!

?Certainly, travel is more than the seeing of sights;
it is a change that goes on, deep and permanent, in the ideas of living." Miriam Beard
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-08-2010, 06:03 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,573
Default lessons: arrival and departure from patterns

One of the sub-threads in this discussion has been proper/accepted/expected procedures for arriving and departing from traffic patterns.

I learned something I didn't know from this, but have some additional observations.

1) 45-entries. I learned something here. I went and looked up the AIM figure 4-3-2. I learned to fly at a gliderport and we always made our pattern entries from an "I.P" at approximately the point of turning from cross-wind to down-wind for closed traffic. Of course, at a gliderport, no one is doing circuits .
But my habits extend from that, and so I have always tended to enter inbound on a 45 that intersects at that point. I guess I have to say I see a lot of other power pilots do it too. One might argue that you are more easily seen by the airplane turning downwind if you enter at this point, whereas if you enter at a point abeam mid-field, you are approaching from a more blind point. That argument not withstanding, I will mend my ways and start entering more abeam mid-field.

2) downwind departures. Here I must differ with other posters. I routinely request and am cleared for downwind departures at tower airports, and I routinely announce and use downwind departures from uncontrolled airports.
If you think about it, this is far and away the safest direction to depart a traffic pattern. I reach pattern altitude at about the downwind turn, and continue climbing out of the pattern as I fly downwind. No other airplane would be near there, except for someone flying an overhead descending entry to downwind and even then, they are surely lower.
Certainly on a downwind departure one must be careful not to conflict with someone on a long straight-in approach -- again, I'm going to be much higher anyway. I have always thought cross-wind departures are dangerous because they create potential conflict with arriving airplanes. An arriving airplane on a 45 is going to cross paths with a cross-wind departure somewhere.
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet"
Hobbs 625
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!!
VAF donation Jan 2020
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-08-2010, 06:38 PM
don.olandese don.olandese is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 193
Default Not ignorance, just lack of courtesy.

even if you live at an uncontrolled field, airspace (for a little while longer at least) belongs to us all. there are recommended procedures in the AIM for arriving and departing uncontrolled fields: we all learn them as students, and they should be used - as a courtesy even if it's not required by immediate demands of safety, i.e, even if there is only one plane in the air for ten miles around. anyone NOT using them should be ready to give way to those who are. having said that, the definition of uncontrolled fields is they are UNCONTROLLED, so always watch for anybody, anywhere, when using them.

maybe you need to have a neighborhood pilots' association meeting and - besides introducing everyone there to each other - publicize, refresh, and reinforce the local procedures in everybody's minds. post a wall diagram of airplane locations in the instances you describe, on a non-attribution basis. most any pilot i know will recognize that those airplanes are not in good places relative to each other, and likely take a lesson without being lectured. (probably a bunch of people will start telling flying stories!) calling the FAA should be a last resort. we don't need them to help us keep our acts together, and besides, they are needed elsewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Jim F Jim F is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canby OR
Posts: 119
Default the zen of uncontrolled fields...

Two points and a philosphical comment; one, I try to be as predictable as possible in the pattern of an uncontrolled field, especially if I am not a local. This includes speed, altitude, entry and exit. Second, I talk and listen, announce my position and intention at each move. ie;communicate, communicate, communicate! if the frequency is too crowded for that, maybe the airspace is equally overbooked!

The zen philosophy; I consider pattern flying to be a type of formation flying, complete with the attention and cooperation required. We are in the pattern with common, compatible and complimentary objectives. Let's be friends who play nicely with others.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-10-2010, 05:27 PM
flion's Avatar
flion flion is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 2,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scsmith View Post
I learned to fly at a gliderport and we always made our pattern entries from an "I.P" at approximately the point of turning from cross-wind to down-wind for closed traffic. Of course, at a gliderport, no one is doing circuits .
I got training at Skysailing at Freemont, CA before switching to Sierra Academy. Leading up to my solo, I did circuits at the gliderport. Don't let your assumptions get you into trouble. Overhead to teardrop entry, when I had ground school at Sierra, led me to think of pattern entry to be at the midpoint of downwind.
__________________
Patrick Kelley - Flagstaff, AZ
RV-6A N156PK - Flying too much to paint
RV-10 14MX(reserved) - Fuselage on gear
http://www.mykitlog.com/flion/
EAA Technical Counselor #5357
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-10-2010, 06:06 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,573
Default Me too at Sky Sailing, Fremont

Quote:
Originally Posted by flion View Post
I got training at Skysailing at Freemont, CA before switching to Sierra Academy. Leading up to my solo, I did circuits at the gliderport. Don't let your assumptions get you into trouble. Overhead to teardrop entry, when I had ground school at Sierra, led me to think of pattern entry to be at the midpoint of downwind.
Well, you have to admit, its pretty rare for airplanes to do circuits at a gliderport. At Sky Sailing, the standard procedure was for tow planes and othe power traffic to fly left patterns, and gliders fly right patterns. More than once I saw tow planes extend downwind to avoid head-to-head conflicts at base-to-final turn.

Nonetheless, your point is well taken - mid-field entry it is from now on. Mia culpa.
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet"
Hobbs 625
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!!
VAF donation Jan 2020
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-10-2010, 06:18 PM
az_gila's Avatar
az_gila az_gila is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
Smile But glider training....

Quote:
Originally Posted by scsmith View Post
Well, you have to admit, its pretty rare for airplanes to do circuits at a gliderport. At Sky Sailing, the standard procedure was for tow planes and othe power traffic to fly left patterns, and gliders fly right patterns. More than once I saw tow planes extend downwind to avoid head-to-head conflicts at base-to-final turn.

Nonetheless, your point is well taken - mid-field entry it is from now on. Mia culpa.
...says to use an Initial Point (IP) for patterns.

Soar Mindens procedures http://www.soarminden.com/briefing_manual.pdf and Tom Knauff's Glider Basics book both show the IP at being opposite the mid-point of the runway on downwind... just like the AIM diagram.

I have many more glider hours than power, but regard the formal patterns for both as similar. Was your glider training different?

At Minden NV, I have seen power planes doing patterns along with gliders... depends on the power/glider mix ratio...
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-15-2010, 11:50 AM
TOAD TOAD is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
Default They are still at it!

I just heard this while having coffee on the patio. I think it is the same guy as in this earlier post. (The winds are calm the day is beautiful, it is a gorgeous morning, snow capped mountains in distant background)

Plane 1: Crest traffic, Cessna ABC landing runway 15. Anyone in the pattern please advise.
Plane 2: Piper XYZ in run-up area for runway 33. Aircraft are currently using runway 33. Cessna ABC, Are you practicing downwind landings?
Plane 1: Cessna ABC landing runway 15 Pilot discretion.
Plane 2: Piper XYZ holding short for runway 33. Cessna ABC we will be glad to accommodate any departure you choose.

I am still laughing.
__________________
RV-7A - Flying
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: central oregon
Posts: 1,089
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOAD View Post
I just heard this while having coffee on the patio. I think it is the same guy as in this earlier post. (The winds are calm the day is beautiful, it is a gorgeous morning, snow capped mountains in distant background)

Plane 1: Crest traffic, Cessna ABC landing runway 15. Anyone in the pattern please advise.
Plane 2: Piper XYZ in run-up area for runway 33. Aircraft are currently using runway 33. Cessna ABC, Are you practicing downwind landings?
Plane 1: Cessna ABC landing runway 15 Pilot discretion.
Plane 2: Piper XYZ holding short for runway 33. Cessna ABC we will be glad to accommodate any departure you choose.

I am still laughing.
was there other traffic in the pattern at this time?
__________________
nothing special here...
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:42 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.