A Chat with a local A&P

[TThurston]

After I finished my local flight a couple of days ago in a rental Diamond DA20, I saw a Remos LSA in a nearby hanger with the cowling off. Although I have the RV-9 preview plans, I'd just about decided that I want to build an RV-12. So I headed across to chat about the plane and what-not.

I'd met the owner of the Remos a few months ago. He was out of town, but his son was there. He's a pretty new pilot, with only about 90 hours. He said he's very happy with the plane for local flying. It sound like the performance is a bit less than the DA20 I've been flying, and a bit less than the RV-12 as well. The plane has about 300 hours, and the local A&P was just starting the annual inspection.

After chatting with the owner's son, we walked over to the plane, and I asked the mechanic if he'd mind if I ask a few questions. He was willing to talk, so I asked what he thought of the plane and the Rotax engine. I was quite surprized by what he said. He was very critical of the plane and engine. He said they cut corners everywhere to make things cheap and light. He showed me the oil cooler sitting on the ground next to the engine. "See this?", he said. "The bracket broke at 300 hours from normal vibrations. It just a piece of bent metal - no reinforcement, no structure." His comments indicated that he felt like that was an example of the entire engine and plane. He seemed to think that a pilot would do far better to buy a used 172 for half the price.

But he wasn't just critical of the Remos LSA. I asked what he thought of the plane I was flying, the Diamond DA20. He didn't like it, even though he's done work on them for the local flight school a fleet of DA20's with probably the highest flight hours anywhere. He said it's not a real plane. In fact, he called it a home-built from a factory. He even said pretty much the same things about Cirrus - home-built planes from a factory that cost a half million dollars - non-standard parts that a prone to fail, and then are extremely expensive to replace.

Well after all this, I asked him about RV's. He's familiar with two RV-6A's in the local hangar complex. One of them he said was awful. Bad rivet work, etc. The other RV-6 he said was probably okay. But he said the problem with kit planes is that people buy the kits and then start building. He said you'd be far better off to attend a serious builder course (not just a quickie classs), so that you really knew what you were doing. And he recomended a series of regular inspections by an A&P to verify good workmanship throughout the build. (I understand that other countries require these inspections.)

Another thing he criticized was the lack of crash protection structure in most planes. He pointed to the Piper behind us, and said that it was designed to deform in a crash so as to protect the occupants. He also suggested that all the LSA's were so light that they really weren't safe for anything but local fair-weather flying.

It was an interesting 15 or 20 minutes chatting with this fellow - very strong opinions, but as a 3rd generation flyer and mechanic, a reasonably well-informed opinion.

Anyway I have a few questions:

1. Are Rotax engines and parts really as skimpy as he suggested?

2. Are LSA's just too light to be safe for anything other than fair weather local flights?

3. What constitutes a serious builder course? Should it really be required?

4. And what about regular inspections during build? How do I know that the EAA techincal counselor has the needed expertise? There was a recent thread regarding having a second set of eyes for annual inspections, and I think I read that DR has an A&P for his inspections.

5. Regarding local expertise, there are no local finished RV-12's. The most similar local planes finished would be Zenith LSA. And the last one of those crashed and burned. How do you find a set of eyes to examine your work that you know will see what needs to be seen? (Scott Schmitt is a local RV-12 builder that has a wonderful RV-10 that he built. Does this mean that he or someone like him will see what needs to be seen?)

6. Anything else I should take away from this chat?

[Sid Lambert]

My advice is to take nothing from the conversation.

One thing aviation has too many of are opinions. Most offer them without you asking but you seem to be searching for them. At this rate if you do build an airplane it will have 2 jet engines, 4 electrical systems, 2 fuel systems, a BRS and a roll cage.

There are some great guys in aviation but there are almost as many sour ones. Build and fly what you want using your judgment as to if it's safe or not.

Sorry to be so blunt but your conversation with 'Mr. Sunshine' shouldn't lead anyone to believe every aircraft except a 172 is a death trap.

[KirkGrovesRV8]

My personal opinion this guy is just a crabby A&P, Does he even like airplanes???
I met a guy like this once... If it was not a Beachcraft it was a piece of junk. It is always good to have a experienced eye look over everything but come on

[DCat22]

I can't really answer your questions...but I've flown a rental 172 exactly once (a nice new one) and hated it. I usually rent a DA20 and am getting checked out in a Remos...both are a blast to fly in my opinion, for production planes at least. And I remember finding that both the DA20 and Remos had quite good safety records too...

I would support "he called it a home-built from a factory" on the DA20 though. It's modern, pretty and fast! (I think over 15kts on the 172?)

[John Clark]

Originally Posted by Sid Lambert

My advice is to take nothing from the conversation.

Good advice. You must at least average out a number of opinions, because they will be all over the map. I really feel sorry for the customer that brought his airplane to Mr. Grumpy for an annual, it is likely to end badly. When I owned my C182, I found an A&P that loved and understood SE Cessnas, same thing with my Baron, found a Beechcraft guy that knew all the moves. Saves time, money, and frustration if you are dealing with a "production" aircraft.


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

[RVbySDI]

I am going to agree with Sid on this one myself. I would really take this guy's comments with such a huge grain of salt it would choke me on the way down. There are those types of individuals who look at change as a good thing and those who look at change as the end of the world. Sounds like this guy falls into the latter category.

So to answer the last question in your list:

Originally Posted by TThurston

6. Anything else I should take away from this chat?

I would say a skeptical eye is what you should take from this chat.

Listen to what others tell you but you alone must be the one to give weight to whether you are going to accept anyone's opinions point blank or not. I know sometimes it may sound very callous but we all should use our own brain power to come to our own conclusions after listening, evaluating, analyzing and then developing our own thoughts. Do not just rely on what someone else tells us.

If someone like this guy has an opinion that may not be what you expected, listen intently to everything he has to say. Then evaluate, to the best of your ability, the reasons for why he might say them in the manner he has. The truth is all of us have opinions about most everything we are involved in and most of those opinions are going to be based upon some outside motivating influence that is not really associated with the actual item of the opinion.

So after you evaluate what and why this guy thinks about things, put those opinions in your brain bucket in an appropriate place. And that place would be sitting right along with every other opinion you have heard on the subject. Then once you have a bucket full of opinions and you throw in some of your own experiences you will have a very good basis for developing your own opinion of the matter that will serve you well in your decision making process.

So, there is my opinion. You can put it in your bucket and decide if you will use it or not. That is for you to decide.

Good luck in your search for the airplane you desire.

[Ironflight]

I agree with those who say "take with a grain of salt"....everyone has opinions, and many can't support them with even a thread of evidence.

Here's how I deal with hangar opinions - ask for a reference! "Gee, that's really interesting - is it written down anyplace?" Now yes, there are occasionally correct new ideas that have not yet been documented. VERY occasionally. Most of the stuff we know about aviation to be true has already been written down. If you can't find a reliable source, then it's worth what you paid for it....

I have met many A&P's who are extremely knowledgable about everything in aviation. I also know a great number who know only what hey have been taught in school, or heard second hand.

Paul

[N8RV]

Our local A&P/IA had similar opinions about homebuilts (although he kept them to himself) until he had the opportunity to examine a few local RVs. Keep in mind that, as a first-time homebuilder, I'm sure I made some boo-boos in the construction that are obvious to anyone with experience. However, all are cosmetic and none compromises safety. With a few cosmetic exceptions in the cockpit, N8RV is just a stock Van's design.

By the time this mechanic had a chance to walk around my plane, he'd had more exposure to the other RVs and just grinned like a monkey. It was a treat for him to see a clean installation, not the grime-covered, oil-soaked engine compartments he's used to seeing.

He admitted that he used to hold homebuilts in low esteem until he'd seen the innards of a few. Now, I think he realizes that mere mortals are capable of following directions and riveting metal competently.

I'm sure that, as an A&P, he's still skeptical that we mere mortals can install an engine and keep it running, but he knows that we're also not afraid to ask for help when needed.

That mechanic may indeed be a sourpuss, but he may also just not have enough exposure to well-built homebuilts like the rest of us see regularly at fly-ins.

[vic syracuse]

Lot's of great comments on this topic. Sometimes the "old guys" are perceived as curmudgeons because they don't do a very good job of explaining themselves, especially as they see themselves overtaken by some of the rapidly-changing and sometimes unproven technologies around them. They fell left out. As an example, there is no doubt that we will see many changes to the fleet of new LSA's as they accrue more time on the fleet. Instead of criticizing, I encourage the knowledgeable and experienced ones to make certain they are helping to "write it down", as Paul says. Turn in service difficulty reports if applicable (e.g. Cirrus), or contact the manufacturere of the LSA's, especially if they are seeing multiple failures of the same parts. Contribute to being part of the solution instead of pointing out the failures. I have found that most of the time (there are exceptions) if they are made to feel included as part of the changing environment they will more likely get on board sooner, and we really all benefit from their experience.

Vic

[Stogie 6]

I thought A & P was a grocery store! Maybe this guy was the head bagger.