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  #51  
Old 06-21-2010, 08:19 PM
Gary Baker Gary Baker is offline
 
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Default Does a Controller Have to Listen to a Readback...

for confirmation from the pilot on an IFR flight plan? I fly professionally and so am coming from a slightly different direction. I seem to remember a memo that came out in the aviation news some years ago that stated a controller is not responsible for listening to the readback of a clearance, thereby does not have confirm that the readback was correct. It seems that I hear a few incorrect readbacks and have had a few myself that are not corrected by the controller. The result of this is that, if the pilot misses a clearance, the controller is absolved, even though the pilot responded to his version of the clearance.

Thanks for taking your time to answer all of these questions, Tony!
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  #52  
Old 06-21-2010, 08:42 PM
fm_weasel fm_weasel is offline
 
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Hi guys, I'd like to offer some supplemental opinions. I work at a low level Up/Down facility in Texas. Up/Down means we work in the tower and the TRACON (approach control).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Baker View Post
The result of this is that, if the pilot misses a clearance, the controller is absolved, even though the pilot responded to his version of the clearance.
I'm not sure how this is communicated on the pilot's side (the FAA may not make it a point to let you know when we get in trouble). But rest assured, if we miss a readback error on a clearance or instruction and the pilot does something unauthorized, we DEFINITELY get held accountable for it. The onus is ON US (so that's where the word comes from) to ensure correct readbacks

Important info on Class Bravo entry

A clearance into the Class Bravo airspace is REQUIRED. So please don't assume you're cleared into the Bravo unless told specifically. Many other airspace entries allow for a "point out" where the controller handles the coordination of your passing through someone else's airspace for you. Class Bravo is a different beast. A clearance is required. If a your controller is able to "point you out" to a Class Bravo controller, then the guy you're talking to still needs to clear you into it. So from your end it would always sound the same, regardless of how it's working behind the scenes. If you don't receive the clearance automatically, please prompt the controller. This happened to me on a flight into the DFW area and I just said "Hey approach, confirm N1235 cleared into bravo?" They replied with my clearance. Let's look out for each other out there

In our airspace (all Class E and two D surface areas) we coordinate the passage of an aircraft through either Class D surface area. The pilot contacting our facility on Approach frequency also satisfies their requirement to establish two way communications for entering the Deltas (either of them). On our side, we're going to call either tower and let them know you'll be coming through, but you've already satisfied your requirement to talk to us by contacting Approach. In the case where I'm in a tower and an aircraft is going to enter the adjacent airports Delta, I will call ahead and coordinate that crossing with the other tower. OR, I will tell the pilot to contact that tower themselves. This is all possible because the airspace movement only requires two-way communications, unlike a class bravo which we all know requires a clearance. The reason for this is that controllers must separate VFR aircraft in Bravo airspace. Of course, controllers in other airspace won't allow planes to hit, but there is no prescribed minimum distance they must remain apart either. This is why Bravo is so different.

Last edited by fm_weasel : 06-21-2010 at 08:50 PM.
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  #53  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:50 AM
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tkatc tkatc is offline
 
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FM Weasel....thanks for chiming in. Glad to see I might have a bit of help and a fresh opinion on certain subjects. I am sure you have unique experiences as do I and together we might be able to provide the BEST answers.

I agree with everything you posted above. It was very informative. I am still not convinced about Bravo airspace though. I would agree that if the controller is just providing advisories then it would be on the pilot to remain clear of any nearby Bravo airspace. I think everybody is on the same page there. But if a controller vectors an aircraft (lets say for weather) and that vector penetrates a bravo, I think a point out would satisfy any entry requirement. I really think this is the case because lets think of an IFR aircraft that gets vectored into/through bravo....there is no requirement to get a clearance into the bravo for them. Some might say that the IFR already had a clearance when he recieved his IFR but there will be cases where that IFR clearance didn't take him through bravo whereas MY vector did.

So far, this is just my opinion. My colleague thinks as FM Weasel does and feels as though the "vectoring controller" will/shall issue the clearance into the bravo.

I haven't been to work yet to collaborate a collective answer but I go in this afternoon and should have more insight. I think the best person to ask is a "Bravo" controller and I will be able to do that later today.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks again Weasel...I love getting to the bottom of obscure scenarios. Feel free to chime in on any issue you think I answered questionably.

Last edited by tkatc : 06-22-2010 at 06:54 AM.
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  #54  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:32 PM
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Brucelas Brucelas is offline
 
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Default Class B airspace

I stand by my previous post, from 7110.65: 7-9-2.
VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE

a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.

PHRASEOLOGY CLEARED THROUGH/ TO ENTER/ OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

If I vector you into a Class B but never say "cleared to Enter the class B" YOU have violated the class B.
However, it would be hard for flight standards to make a case against you, but I would not like to test those waters.
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  #55  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:41 PM
bkthomps bkthomps is offline
 
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if ATC asks you to do something that would involve breaking a reg, you are required to respond "unable due to _____"

ATC is not PIC, you are
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  #56  
Old 06-22-2010, 09:54 PM
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tkatc tkatc is offline
 
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ok...I have conversed with several controllers and we are generally in agreement. The regs describe a vfr pilot talking directly to the controller that is responsible for the class bravo. I think everyone here would agree that you need a specific clearance.

The regs were intended for just that scenario. They also intend to give the controller a fighting chance with regards to separating vfr traffic from ifr traffic. The standard is 1.5 miles. If the controller is too busy or the airspace is too congested, the controller may opt to deny any requests to enter.

Now in our described scenario (you are vectored into the airspace by a controller of a nearby airspace) the controller issuing vectors is responsible for the point out. With this point out completed, the bravo controller now is aware of the vfr aircraft and will separate accordingly. No specific clearance is needed. You are being instructed to fly whatever heading and you are expected to comply.

This is my FIRM opinion but I will continue to inquire and get an OFFICIAL answer. And YES, I will post it and eat crow if I am wrong.
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  #57  
Old 06-23-2010, 07:05 AM
fm_weasel fm_weasel is offline
 
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I agree with everything you've posted above except the notion that neither controller must, at some point, go back to the pilot and CLEAR him through the Bravo. Without those words, the VFR pilot's flight into Bravo may be coordinated, but he has not received a clearance. I can see how this could be looked over, but I could also see someone making a big deal out of it. In lieu of an official response, I'd recommend that any pilot be very aware of their proximity to class Bravo airspace and prompt the controller for clearance into it if they don't receive one automatically.

Disclaimer: I do not work class Bravo airspace, my opinion is just an interpretation of the regulations supported by other online discussions I've had with controllers that do work Bravo airspace. I'm open to there being some official rule that may or may not agree with my opinion. But I'm definitely in favor of erring on the side of caution in the meantime

Interesting bit of trivial knowledge, apparently controllers are also required to let a VFR pilot know when he's exited the Bravo airspace. I received such a transmission on a VFR cross country out of the DFW area and replied with a sort of "Roger?" The controller sensed my confusion and said "I know you know, but we have to tell you." Was news to me
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  #58  
Old 06-23-2010, 07:34 AM
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scard scard is offline
 
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You won't find me following a vector when VFR into class B without "the magic words". Same holds true for a number of other situations such as canceling an IFR flight plan.
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  #59  
Old 06-25-2010, 12:08 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Oh? the greatest thread on VAF so far for me. All every interesting and good to test/check my knowledge and practices. So, many thanks for your help and clarification here.

Here is a question which relates more to IFR flying

While enroute and you are cleared for a visual approach? at some point you can start your descend?
I was under the impression that once you are cleared for visual approach, you can do what ever you want. However on one of my recent flight, after being cleared? I advised ATC to start my descend and he seemed surprised and confirmed if I am requesting to go lower. Any thoughts about that?
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  #60  
Old 06-25-2010, 12:12 PM
bkthomps bkthomps is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafa View Post
Oh? the greatest thread on VAF so far for me. All every interesting and good to test/check my knowledge and practices. So, many thanks for your help and clarification here.

Here is a question which relates more to IFR flying

While enroute and you are cleared for a visual approach? at some point you can start your descend?
I was under the impression that once you are cleared for visual approach, you can do what ever you want. However on one of my recent flight, after being cleared? I advised ATC to start my descend and he seemed surprised and confirmed if I am requesting to go lower. Any thoughts about that?
he probably confirmed your stated altitude change, if you are cleared for the visual approach you can start your descent, any changes in altitudes to the controller will be confirmed with a read back out of habit probably, but cleared visual is descending a pilots discretion as i understand it
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