Alternative Engine Bashing

[zilik]

The recent post asking about Porsche engines again brought out the nay-sayers. Yes the Porsche did not work out for Mooney but that does not mean that it would not work out for a enterprising young man building an RV.

It seems that the Lyco guys just can't wait to point out all the flaws of non aircraft engines. I think these are the builders who build to fly and not build to build. There are builder/flyers and then there are flyers.

I don't try to push my beliefs on others and I hope that others follow the same rules when dealing with me. I fly a lycoming but does that mean the guy with the Porsche or Mazda is lower that me because of his choice? I think not. Some guys/gals want to tinker and have excellent success with the non-aircraft engine. To me the guys who experiments with alternative engines are on the same level (very high) as the designer/builder or the plans built builder, some succeed and some don't.

We all have different comfort levels when it comes to flying. Some are more bold and go the alternative engine route and some stay with the norm, a Lycoming. I fall in to the normal flying guy, the big chicken, so I chose the Lycoming. I'll leave the experimenting on the ground.

But I won't bash the AE guy because he wants to go that route and I encourage the rest of the big chickens like me to do the same. Pointing unsafe practices, like solid fuel lines in the engine compartment is OK, but leave it at that. Just because its a AE does not mean that it's unsafe.

[SHIPCHIEF]

Thanks Gary;
AE has come a long way. when you go to the AE sites, and look at pictures of current projects, you will see it's not cheapskates that move forward, it's inovators with solid support from their group.

[n5lp]

I guess I have a little different take on it Gary. I wouldn't consider the facts in that thread "bashing." Porsche is a large and successful company with huge engineering resources. They came up with an engine that was much more expensive, less efficient and heavier than the ancient Lycoming IO-360. If it doesn't work well with all that, I think we have the right to be skeptical of garage guys or small companies.

Great if someone can do it but it sure ain't easy. Lycoming has lots of experience and their engines work pretty darn well.

[L.Adamson]

The person who wrote the post, asked the question....

I knew it didn't work for Mooney, and stated I had no idea in regards to an RV.

I then linked the Porshe/Mooney article........for some relevant information

This is NOT as a case of waiting to "bash".............

If someone comes up with some better installation facts, then fine by me..

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

[rv6ejguy]

Fair post Gary, I appreciate it.

Sorry to say I don't agree with some other posts here. There are many examples of big companies with smart engineers getting it all wrong when it comes to aircraft engines, Thielert comes to mind as a recent one. Sometimes one or two smart guys can do a better job that a whole bunch who are always knocking heads or getting the bean counters and marketing people throwing their ideas into the mix.

It takes a bit of talent to do alt engine installations successfully but what Porsche did back in the '80s has almost no bearing on what a guy doing a one off today would be doing. Lots has changed.

Nobody said anything here that Lycoming was not a good choice for RVs but let's remember, that they have warts too.

[Geico266]

What motivates builders to use AEs?

Desire to tinkering?
Ease of installation with a complete FF package?
Wanting to be different?
Money?
To prove it can be done?

Obviously there are different motivating factors for everyone, but it is interesting to look at what motivates builders to make the choice.

[TSwezey]

Cause we have a screw loose. It is the same type of mentality that trusted Van's design in the early days.

[mark schoening]

MY OPINION---I personally use lyc because it is proven, cost is consistent, install is standardized, parts and accessories are available, and because of this building is faster. Having said that, anyone who takes on alternative power has my admiration in that the engineering, support systems development, and tremendous time investment that is needed to prove the system both cost effective and safe for aviation use. I also think a lot of people have a strong opinion as to the viability of alternate power and although may be perceived as "shooting down" the idea, both sides need to lighten up and not be so thin skinned. Keep a sense of humor people, remember that some day anti-gravity will be the norm--beam me to the Bahamas - Scottie

[RV7Guy]

Okay, I've had an extra cup of coffee so here goes. Gary brings up some good points. I've been labeled as a AE basher, however, I was one of them for a while. For a quick history for those newer members, I had a Suby package from a now defunct Canadian company. Myself and another guy were filled with lies, false promises, unrealistic performance numbers and on and on. We thought we had educated ourselves, but only learned of the issues AFTER we had put down substantial deposits. They were successfully sued by one Florida RV owner and a judgement rendered.

I heard all of the Lyc folks warn me over and over. I didn't listen. After the above incident, I put on an ECI. It was only after that, that I started looking at the dismal safety record of the AE's. This cannot be denied.

However, when you point out facts regarding incidents and the safety record of the AE's, it is labeled as bashing. FACTS ARE NOT BASHING!!!! It is simply that many of the AE guys don't want to hear facts or accept those facts. They rationalize away each and everyone of the facts.

I feel it the obligation of all those experienced RVer's, (and other builders) to educate new people on the facts. If those facts are contrary to ones desires, so be it. But at least they have been educated.

One of my good friends is lucky to be alive after his Suby powered plane lost power and he went down in the desert. The plane flipped and he was able to get out okay with minor injuries but a destroyed plane. Several people tried unsuccessfully to "educate" him as to the poor safety record and success rate of this package. He didn't listen and it almost cost him his life. A father, husband and great person was nearly lost.

I won't steal his thunder but he will have very exciting news to report tomorrow.

I sincerely hope that a dependable AE package can be developed that is within the capabilities of the average builder. Until then, there are only a handful of people with the skill sets to make these work. Ross is one of these and I respect everything he writes and read all of his posts. Even then, the very dismal safety record cannot be ignored.

[deej]

Originally Posted by RV7Guy

However, when you point out facts regarding incidents and the safety record of the AE's, it is labeled as bashing. FACTS ARE NOT BASHING!!!! It is simply that many of the AE guys don't want to hear facts or accept those facts. They rationalize away each and everyone of the facts.

You are missing the point. We've heard of these incidents, over, and over (and over!). We know about them. We learn from them. We don't want to keep hearing about them over, and over (and over!). We want to have constructive conversations on how to fix any potential problems, and how to make the packages successful. Repeating over and over (and over!) the previous incidents is akin to a broken record. It gets old and quite irritating after awhile.

I ask, PLEASE, if you have constructive comments on how to make the packages better, please post and lets have a constructive dialogue. If you have detailed information how a previous package failed, then please post it so we can learn from it.

If you have any specific information on exactly what failed in your friends Suby airplane, and can share this with us, and possible solutions on how that particular failure could have been prevented, I would be grateful if you would please post that information.

However, if all you have to post is the same old "The sky is falling!" "The sky is falling" 'The sky is falling", then please, just don't bother anymore. We've already heard it. My apologies if this comes across harshly, but I just don't know how to say it anymore.

Thanks,

-Dj