Great idea!

[dlomheim]

Originally Posted by deej

I would love to see a pro-alternative engine person be the SOLE moderator of the Alternative engine section of this forum. Perhaps then that person could filter out the "attack dogs" and we might be able to have meaningful conversations here. Unfortunately I think most of the people with real knowledge have moved elsewhere, and getting them back here would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. Note, I said most, not all. Obviously there are some still trying, like Bill, but far too many have left.

-Dj

This is right on the mark as any who have been on this for a couple of years can readily atest. So how can we go about instituting something like this? A primary goal of this forum should be to assist alternative engine builders vs. wasting band width on endless discourses of past failures, or how "X" alternative engine company had screwed them, etc., etc., etc.

Does this kind of chaff happen on the "traditional aircraft engine" forum? Do the Lycoming guys have to constantly explain themselves on that forum? What gives here anyway? When someone buys a rotary engine and informs this list about it but feels compelled to add qualifiers such as "flame proof suit on", etc.; the true state of the cancer infecting this list is readily apparent to all and can no longer be hidden. The traditional engine forum doesn't have to put up with continual attacks regarding powerplant prefence, so why does this list have to?

As stated before, too many good folks have left this list (Ross Farnham of SDS for instance); and all of the rest of us who are actively installing alternative engines in our RV's are the big losers for it!

So the question remains, how do we get a dedicated moderator assigned to this list who will not end up joining in with the "attack dogs"; but will instead weed out all that unproductive stuff we've all had to put up with for way too long? I've been on this list for five plus years now and didn't like it then and still don't at this point in time. Do all of us of like mind need to sign a petition and send it on to Doug Reeves with the request???

I am not quite ready to give up on this list since it has so much potential to be a great forum in helping experimenters adapt their alternative engines to their RV airframes; but the "flamesuit" caveat made me wonder if it was really worth my time any longer...

Doug Lomheim
RV-9A / Mazda 13B

[Geico266]

While insults and flaming are not very useful, there are many here who have years of experience with alternative engines which have failed. Keeping them from contributing their experiences (even negative ones) seems counter productive to me.

Having said that, I support your idea, and can support an area that is a "No flame suit needed" zone.

[TSwezey]

I don't think Ross left due to the "cancer". I think he just got extremely busy. I may be wrong but he stayed in the battle for years. It really isn't that bad at all anymore. There are many that failed and it would be helpful if they could provide info on why it/they failed. Developing a different way of doing something takes time, money, knowledge and a ton of persistence and is not for somebody who has to have an instant result. Sometimes you can't get there from here you have to go back from where you came from. And there is a lot going back from where you started.

[RV8RIVETER]

I agree a change is needed. I don't have an auto engine, but do enjoy reading and learning. I don't have a problem with those who have installed or attempted to install an alternative engine sharing their experiences good or bad. It is all valuable.

I do not enjoy or understand the constant "evangilizing", without a shred a first hand experience, about how they should "save their souls" and "see they light" of Lycoming. This section should be dedicated to sharing pratical knowledge about alternative engine installations (good or bad) in RV's.

Sorry, I will get off the soapbox now.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by TSwezey

I don't think Ross left due to the "cancer". I think he just got extremely busy. I may be wrong but he stayed in the battle for years. It really isn't that bad at all anymore. There are many that failed and it would be helpful if they could provide info on why it/they failed. Developing a different way of doing something takes time, money, knowledge and a ton of persistence and is not for somebody who has to have an instant result. Sometimes you can't get there from here you have to go back from where you came from. And there is a lot going back from where you started.

Actually I did leave because of the continuous negative posts from the traditional engine guys and one biased moderator (in my view). I continue to lurk and learn here on VAF which is such a tremendous resource. Doug always said here- "if you don't like it, there is the door"- well I took the door, having better things to do with my time frankly than defend the idea of alt engines against a continuous onslaught of prejudice.

I might return if the alt engine area becomes a place to exchange constructive information to those interested without the strident roar of those posters who think everyone who doesn't install a Lycoming is a lunatic.

Fortunately we have some other great forums for alt engine people to discuss their successes, failures, issues and questions on and this has paid real benefits for these users. We have quite of number of success stories now- plus a few problems we are working out solutions for.

I do want to thank Paul Dye for his even handed support and pleas for fairness, understanding and reason here. I was fortunate enough to meet Paul at Reno last year- what a truly nice and smart guy. The world might be a better place if some people took his advice to try to live in harmony....

[Ironflight]

Hey Ross, good to see you're still reading ....you raise the bar whenever you participate. Truthfully, I find that there is really only one thing I like best about VAF, and that I try and help preserve when I can - "Civility" is what Doug Reeves calls it. Being from Minnesota, I just call it "being nice". Be nice, give everyone a chance to voice their opinion without personal attack, and take away from the discussions what you need to make your own decision. Arguing on the internet is akin to beating your head against a wall - you're not going to convince folks to change their minds if they are already made up. The best you can do is educate those who have still not decided. Respect each other, and let folks have their say - so long as they are civil about it.

I contribute what I know, and rarely give advice - I will give my experience, and others can take it or leave it. But when I see folks piling on, I will step in to referee. Just deleting posts which we don't agree with is counterproductive - so long as what is posted is done respectfully, and is clearly understandable as fact or opinion, I can live with it.

It takes very little moderation (by actual post count) to keep this place running smoothly - thanks mostly to the 11,000+ members who know how to behave in a reasonable fashion...

Paul

[Mike S]

Hey Ross, glad to see you back -----no matter what the motivation.

Missed you, and the knowledge you have to share.

How goes the 10???

[pierre smith]

...with the idea to have an Alternative engine guy as a moderator here.

I'm always supportive of EAA and experimentation and read all I can about Subies, Belted-air Chevies, LS-1's and rotaries....I've had cars with all of them as well.

This could definitely be a beneficial area...Alt engines.

Great to hear from you again, Ross!

Best,

[JDanno]

I'd sure like to see someone who is interested in Alt. Engines moderate this forum. I left a large internet forum involved with Jeep Cherokees because of this very same problem of flaming anything and everything. It was really disheartning to do so as I had been heavily involved from the start up as an officer, moderator and event coordinator. Coming over to VAF has been like a dose of cold water on a hot day. I appreciate the fact that flame wars are not tolerated in any shape or form. VAF also seems to attract a higher caliber of person. It may be that we are typically older and slightly more wealthy than the Jeep people. I don't know?!
That said, I see that the potential for the same problem is still lying just below the surface. I really have missed Ross and the others who have contributed so much to the Alt. Engine forums and would like to see them feel comfortable in contributing once again without getting their ideas and experiences flamed.

[DanH]

Devil's advocate......

Any currrent moderator may delete an attack dog. They're not deleting because most know the difference between an attack dog and a barking dog.

Titling a thread "Flame suit on...Just bought an engine" is beating on the kennel with a stick......with the expected result. Might the result have been different if the thread was titled "Help me build a custom engine mount"?

"Meaningful conversations"? The specific problem holding back alt-engine development is a lack of truly meaningful discussion (and understanding) within the alt-engine community.....engineering, physics, science, experiment, measurement. FWIW, most of the Lyco cheering section is equally shallow....so all we have is barking. Want to improve the situation? Raise the bar.