Test flight and Phase 1

aadamson · #1 02-08-2006, 07:31 AM

http://www.aerocompinc.com/government/8130.2ch1.pdf

Quote:

(10) During the flight-testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that
person is essential to the purpose of the flight.

Ok, so educate me...

For some reason I thought that the following was *only* allowed.

a) test flight could only be done by a solo pilot (no passengers)

b) phase 1 flights are restricted to a solo pilot (no passengers)

If my wires aren't too far crossed, why do I see people talking about getting dual in their own airplane that is still in phase 1 flight testing and why do I also see people talk about taking a ride with the test pilot after the first flight to "get checked out".

I was wrong about purchasing an built experimental and doing your own maint. So am I wrong about this as well? Mind you, I did my original research over 10 years ago when I looked at building an airplane the first time, so maybe things changed?

jcoloccia · #2 02-08-2006, 07:56 AM

I dunno. I think the rule was written to keep people from taking casual passengers before phase I is finished. It seems like a second set of eyes on the first flight (call him a "flight test engineer" if you'd like) is not nescessarily a bad idea, and is probably in keeping with the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

(and please don't everyone start in with military test flight protocols...they have recorders, chase planes, and telemetry out the whazoo being monitored by a team in the control room).

just my $.02

Vern · #3 02-08-2006, 08:03 AM

I asked my DAR in detail about this and he was emphatic that the Southern Region FAA would deal harshly with this violation of the FARs. This provision is intended for large complex aircraft, not RVs, he said.

Of course, people doing it get away with it until they get caught, which is unlikely at most locations. But in case of an accident, would your insurance pay,or refuse since you were 'knowingly violating FARs?'

arffguy · #4 02-08-2006, 08:32 AM

My interpretation of this is that Vern is correct. The intent of the FAA rule is "essential crew only". The RV does not require two pilots. It is not a Learjet or Boeing 737. Legal or not, I think it is downright silly to take a second person especially on the very first flight. I have seen people do this and get away with it. One guy I know even took a 300 mile cross country during his phase one period. The RV has become so common and reliable that people have too much faith and confidence in them right out of the shop sometimes.

Mel · #5 02-08-2006, 08:49 AM

Vern & Mikey are correct. A passenger in an RV within the phase I flight testing is illegal. Yes, It is done. That doesn't make it legal and if there is an accident or incident, #1..insurance will not pay, and #2..it will add a black mark on the amateur-built community. This matter is discussed thoroughly every year at our annual refresher seminar for all DARs.
Mel...DAR

jclark · #6 02-08-2006, 09:27 AM

<On soap box> ...

People that do this are probably in violation from what I recall.

If they are not, then the person riding was "essential crew" and THEN it seems you would be in violation every time you flew WITHOUT the pilot in the seat.

So if you do it and get caught and play the "essential crew" card, if I were FAA, I would say fine .. then this aircraft CANNOT be flown solo and the person in the other seat MUST be a pilot.

Seems also both the spirit and letter of the law is being violated here and we will all suffer if the continues.

Finally, the insurance company clearly would have some grounds here for not paying in the event of an accident.

If someone does not feel comfortable flying their experimental plane solo during the first or other Phase I flying, the **LOGICAL** (and legal) thing to do is get a qualified (and insured) person to do those tests for them.

If one *must* do it themselves then the key is to do whatever to get the training so both the skill and confidence is there to act as a "test pilot" on those early flights.

Otherwise, again, we will all pay sooner or later ...

<Off soap box>

Having said all the above, I don't feel this is something that is prevalent.

James

mark manda · #7 02-08-2006, 09:31 AM

FWIW- I talk too much.

zspivey · #8 02-08-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aadamson

http://www.aerocompinc.com/government/8130.2ch1.pdf

Ok, so educate me...

For some reason I thought that the following was *only* allowed.

a) test flight could only be done by a solo pilot (no passengers)

b) phase 1 flights are restricted to a solo pilot (no passengers)

If my wires aren't too far crossed, why do I see people talking about getting dual in their own airplane that is still in phase 1 flight testing and why do I also see people talk about taking a ride with the test pilot after the first flight to "get checked out".

I was wrong about purchasing an built experimental and doing your own maint. So am I wrong about this as well? Mind you, I did my original research over 10 years ago when I looked at building an airplane the first time, so maybe things changed?

My understanding of the FAA's regulations is that passengers are prohibited during the test flight period. The same regulations prohibit training in your own aircraft during the test flight period. However, the RV community is not restricted to the United States where the FAA's regulations apply. Some other countries do not have the identical prohibitions; check to see the nationality of the folks who have an instructor or assistance during the flight test period.

aadamson · #9 02-08-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark manda

My Test pilot, ATP bobby baker was sitting right there next to FAA inspector Gene Sweet when Gene said, "If you need a second set of eyes to watch instruments and want him in the passenger seat, since you'll be busy flying the plane, I don't have a problem with this."

"If you pack up your wife and kids and go to Los Angeles, we'll be talking again."

For the other poster, yes, this was in the US, and I was aware that other countries have different rules.

To the point of this quote above, I find that disturbing and scary. I assume that the reference to "FAA inspector" is equivalent to DAR? If so, then a person that is authorized by the FAA is recommending that a law be broken?. While that isn't my major beef, I'm glad that others understand the rules as I do and that the above is not only promiting lawlessness, but also jepordizing other areas we enjoy as experimental builders and pilots, that being insurance costs, current operating limitation verbage, etc.

That last thing I'd want to see happen is that 2 people on a first flight get hurt, that that becomes the norm for first flight accidents, and the FAA decide to change the way we can operate for first flight and phase 1.

Also, one other note, I suspect I was wrong to word my 2 statements, as actually, the DAR would sign off on airworthiness and would autorize Phase 1 flight.... It just happens that "first flight" is just that the first flight during Phase 1, so there are not specific rules associated with it other than the ones associated with Phase 1.

Wow, scary stuff some participate in... both for them and for us.

Ironflight · #10 02-08-2006, 11:57 AM

Regardless of the Operational aspects of taking a passenger or not (and I come down on the side of "not"...), I agree with Mel, who did my own inspection, and very clearly stated what he said above - you will not win an argument with the FAA over this if they decide to violate you. I have no doubt at all that Mark was told differntly by an inspector, but I bet if you asked for that opinion in writing, you'd wait a VERY long time for the piece of paper....

I could tell a very long story about some extended range fuel tanks in Grummans that were approved by the FSDO's in California but not by the FSDO in Houston, and the guys in California getting notices from the Houston office saying their planes were grounded....typical behavior for the FAA, unfortunately...

Paul