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  #11  
Old 02-07-2006, 11:14 AM
flydoc flydoc is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 78
Default Mooney Interior

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcsteatlh
Has the question been posted the RV-10 vs Mooney question?

I'm considering buying a 15 year old Mooney but I do desire to own and fly a Vans.

The mission is husband and wife, 10 and 7 year old, Houston to Midland, San Antonio, or Dallas and of course, some X/C

McStealth
One thing to consider is the cabin of the Mooney. After flying a C182 for a few years, I had all but decided on a new Mooney until I took a test flight. The single door and VERY cramped cabin was a deal killer for me. I am 6', but not overly large and the cabin seemed a little too much like a coffin. This may be a biased assessment coming out of a 182, but my wife (non-pilot) said she'd rather fly commercially. I will be a first time builder and have decided on the 10. Setting up shop!

IMHO,
Mark
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2006, 11:45 AM
attson attson is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 70
Default Mooney vs. 10

full disclosure:

I am building an RV10

I have instructed in Mooneys (various models), Trinidads, Bonanzas, Cessnas, Pipers, and yes Cirrus and Lancairs (experimental) and Columbias (certified Lancair). I also provide transition training for many RV owners.

I have owned a C182, built an RV6A (300 hrs flying)

I am biased against airplanes with single door ( even though as a CFI I sit on the right side -exit side) and Mooneys with their cramp quarters are at the bottom of my list - I am only 5' 9" 152 lbs

I am surprised that people still buy NEW Mooneys or Pipers with the competition from Cirrus and Columbia (Cessnas and Bonanzas are different breeds with different missions)

having tasted the RVs I would cringe at crawling into a Mooney 201J

but that's my own opinion... please take it for what's it worth... my circumstances may be differrent from yours
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2006, 11:57 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,285
Default Just prespective

I think you can get some amazing 4 place aircraft for $120,000.

Here is a turbo-ed M20J with a very nice panel:
http://www.controller.com/listings/f...p?OHID=1097526

A 1978 for $92.5
http://www.controller.com/listings/f...p?OHID=1100021

I just google'ed Mooney M20J for sale and got all kind of hits.

There are $200k Mooney's but they look like this:
http://www.premieraircraftsales.com/...ge.php?iid=696
Another list.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/search.jsp...delgroup=false

That is why I can't see people paying $220K plus for a RV-10 homebuilt, unpainted and unremarkable panel, as I have seen.

I think older Bonanzas and Comanche's make for fast planes under $100k.

Personally I don't want to need a 4 place. My feeling is if I ever need a 4 place or 6 place I'll rent it. I like doing loops and rolls too much. However If I had the money to have several planes, I would certainly like to have a fast 4-6 place plane to go with the acro sport plane, and add an amphib, bush plane and small jet. Ahaaaaa Dreams.

(Please you RV-10'ers please don't take it as a slight on that model, it is just I don't fly with 4 people and my "mission" is sport flying not people hauling, not that there's anything wrong with that mission either of course. The RV-10 would be my choice if it was.)

To echo what a previous post said, If I had to have and pay for the ownership of a capable (factory) true 4-place, the C-182 would be near the top of the list. Fixed gear, good payload. The retracts are great but add cost in both maintenance and insurance. Down and welded will never let you down and the rough field capability is greater. (Mooney's are one of the worst soft field planes due to low prop to ground clearance and nose gear design. Great for flat hard surfaces, but the school I taught at as a CFI, we had several Mooney prop strikes in a few years. Fortunately none involved me or former students of mine. George

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 02-07-2006 at 12:11 PM.
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  #14  
Old 02-09-2006, 07:38 AM
mcsteatlh mcsteatlh is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingwood
Posts: 80
Default Thanks everybody.

Thanks to all for the great posts. I'm going to Kerrville, Tx this weekend and look over the 'J' model. I'm waiting for April for Sun n Fun to look at the 10's. I don't think there is a 10 in Houston, at least to my knowledge. Maybe I need to sit in an 182.

Sincerely
McStealth

PS ALEX,
he he he
We grow them big here in TX
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  #15  
Old 02-09-2006, 09:17 AM
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dan dan is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: ...
Posts: 2,049
Default Build it

I used to own an M20F and an M20J. Loved them until I knew better. Ask Mooney drivers what their annuals cost and if they're totally happy with the quality of service they receive from their A&Ps. I suspect the average will be less than perfect.

My first annual on my RV-7 cost about $105. This year will be a real whopper at about $400 (adding and replacing a few things). My last few annuals on the Mooneys cost anywhere between $2500 and $4500. A $10,000 annual on a Mooney is not unheard of. Corrosion of the steel cage, corrosion of pushrods and rod ends, landing gear issues (i.e. nosegear oversteered by FBO ground personnel, etc.), and of COURSE weeping fuel tanks which seems to plague rougly 1 in 2 Mooneys at any given time. Resealing the tanks is not cheap.

So cut to building...

Building your RV-10 (or whatever) will, simply put, change your life. After all of the blood, sweat, and tears, you exit the tunnel with an airplane you built with your own two hands -- and airplane that you are now completely authorized to maintain in its entirety. The FAA hands you that Repairman Certificate for your airplane, and you are now utterly free of the monkeys that turn wrenches and charge you a fortune for less-than-perfect work. Quality is in your control. You can take your sweet time doing maintenance. You can do it on your schedule. You set the bar.

Not to mention that you have the ability to use the absolute most modern equipment -- powerplant options, propellers, and of course that fantastic panel full of glass or what have you, which won't be an option in your Mooney.

Cutting-edge technology, freedom from shoddy quality, all at about the same price. The real cost? A few years of your life. But during those years you will learn more about airplanes than you ever imagined possible. Your life truly will be changed.

Do you want to just fly around in something you don't know and have to pay to have maintained potentially imperfectly? Or do you want to fly around in something that is undoubtedly safe, ridiculously modern, customized to your every whim, and your pride and joy that you built with your own two hands?

I did enjoy flying the M20J since I knew no better at the time. I will never own a certificated airplane again.

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (812 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
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  #16  
Old 02-09-2006, 10:53 PM
jarhead jarhead is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 264
Default

Preach it, Dan!
IMO, this post you wrote should go in the "Best of the Best" file. ***EDIT - Seems that Doug beat me to the punch; there's a link to the post on the VAF.net home page***

Funny I should see this tonight - my wife and I were briefly discussing "built vs. bought" earlier tonight (a QuickBuild vs. standard-build discussion), and what I told her is basically what you said in your last couple paragraphs - I want the pride and satisfaction of flying an airplane I built myself, behind an engine I assembled, and advised by a panel I spec'd and arranged to my requirements and preferences. I want to be challenged by things like fuel tank assembly and sealing, trailing-edge riveting, and trying to get good solids in where others resort to pop-rivets.

Although, I'm personally not too happy about this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
The FAA hands you that Repairman Certificate for your airplane, and you are now utterly free of the monkeys that turn wrenches and charge you a fortune for less-than-perfect work.
C'mon, not all of us wrench-turning monkeys do crappy work for cubic dollars. I'll freely admit that there's plenty of s**tbirds out there in the industry (mechs, IA's, and repair stations) who deserve to have their certificates permanently revoked (like the asshat that did the "work" on your Mooney that I saw on your site - I'd like to break that guy's hands...), but most of us stay in this industry for love, not money. Auto mechanics (wait, sorry... automotive service technicians ) make more than A&P's in a lot of areas around the country, and work in better conditions a lot of the time.
__________________
Ken

Helicopter mechanic (A&P)
USAFR KC-10 Boom Operator, on final approach to retirement
My RV-9/8/7 dream may be on life support, but it ain't dead yet!

Last edited by jarhead : 02-09-2006 at 11:21 PM. Reason: Found it on the home page...
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  #17  
Old 02-09-2006, 11:42 PM
jdmunzell jdmunzell is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Hamilton, VA
Posts: 419
Default

Let's face it guys. We are definitely in this for the pure love and passion for not only flying, but also the incredible satisfaction of working with your hands and seeing the fruits of your labor. We are not unlike woodworkers in this regard, and in fact a lot of airplane builders are also woodworkers to some degree.

True enough, the RV is an airplane with good resale value (read..profit margin), but is NOT the driving force for my passion, and I do emphasize the word 'passion'.

I have been involved with general and commercial aviation for many years now, and have always been enthusiastic about WHATEVER airplane I found myself involved in. EVERY AIRPLANE has it's positive attributes no matter how remote they may seem. I've owned several certificated birds and even part of an older homebuilt, and have always strived to do as much of the maintenence as legally allowed, including owner assist annuals. It has generally worked out OK on cost of ownership, except for this year. Mind you, I am building an -8 slowbuild because I too want to experience every inch of the process. I don't want to miss out on any educational opportunity involved in this process. I sold my 45 year old cherry C172 this year due to financial reasons ( 45% cut in pay, pensions disappearing, increase in medical insurance, you know..the usual). This year, my Cessna girl cost me a $3000 annual! OUCH!!! It was just one of the years when certain major systems needed replacement.

That convinced me that building my airplane was the sensible and most cost effective way for me to stay in this hobby! So now I have nothing to fly except for a bud's Stearman that is 3 states away.

The homebuilt movement has come a long way since it's earliest beginnings. As was mentioned in an earlier post, you can have state of the art avionics and powerplants that simply are not available to the certified aircraft market, or are prohibitively expensive in those airplanes.

I look forward to the day when I roll my homegrown dream out on to the tarmac, and take her upstairs, but until then I will continue to relish in the passion of being in my "men's room", building my airplane , one piece at a time!

Blue skies and perfect rivets!

Jeff
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  #18  
Old 02-10-2006, 12:47 PM
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w1curtis w1curtis is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Eastern, PA
Posts: 828
Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
..I will never own a certificated airplane again.

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (812 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
Here, Here! Dan

I must say that the thing that put me over the edge and started building was a VERY frustrating experience with a repair station that was doing insurance work/paint/annual on my Cardinal. This outfit seemed to have come up with a new way to print money and aircraft owners was an integral part of that formula. I finally got my plane from them on a ferry permit and went elswhere.

While I love my Cardinal and fully intend to keep it when my -10 is complete, I too will also never buy a certificated airplane again.

The unfortunate thing is that yours and my experiences are more the norm rather than the exception and this is causing pilots who do not have the patience or the resolve to build, to just give up GA altogether. This hurts us all.
__________________
William Curtis
SB RV-10 40237, Status, Panel, Engine, Paint, Me, NE RV-10 Page, Cessna 177RG, AF Missions
?Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.? - Dr. Suess

Last edited by w1curtis : 02-11-2006 at 10:09 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-10-2006, 01:27 PM
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wirejock wirejock is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
Default Homebuid

I was on the fence. Now there is no question.
After years of building all sorts of projects, I never been more excited about starting an this project. I hope to start a -10 in December. First I have to finish my pilot certificate and re-side the house (promised the wife). I've completely dismantled a VW bug and restorred it. I tiled our house. I built all the furniture in one house and started on the vacation home. I built at least a dozen RC airplanes. I look back and remember every moment of the process, the anguish and pain (RC planes crash), the hospital visits (2 for stitches and went right back to work as soon as I got home), the pride felt on completion and the excitement of planning the next one. I wouldn't have changed a thing. My children comment on the values my projects taught them. Now they have numerous heirlooms to fight over when I'm gone. This will be another. RV-10 here I come!
__________________
Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/03/2019, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
HS SB, empennage, tanks, wings, fuse, working finishing kit
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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  #20  
Old 02-11-2006, 12:54 AM
attson attson is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 70
Default RV10 and certificated airplanes

guys
try fly a Cirrus SR22 or a Lancair Comlumbia before you write off certificated airplanes...admittedly these cost $$$$$$ but they are nicer/faster/better equipped/better constructed than 98% of the experimentals I've been privileged to.
Son
RV10 -still working on canopy top
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