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  #1  
Old 03-13-2010, 11:34 PM
SHIPCHIEF SHIPCHIEF is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,412
Default How about both Traditional and Alternate?

How about high pressure automotive fuel injection on a Lycoming engine?
That opens up use of ethanol blended fuel. Adapt the best of automotive fuel injection, and use an aviation oriented control system like Tracy Crooks EC series of controller or Simple Digital Systems injection's controller. Maybe there are others too.
The planned increase in federal aviation fuel tax from $.04 to $.36 (if I recall correctly) certainly helps the mogas cause.
We have lots of avionics that are not certified, even electronic ignition.
It costs me $60/hr in fuel to run my C-182.
And my autogas STC is useless because you can't get ethanol free fuel here as of last week.
I'm enjoying building an Alternative Engine RV-8, and all that entails, but I tell you this: a stock lycoming powerplant could easily be adapted to run on high pressure digital fuel injection. It's already been done.
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Scott Emery
http://gallery.eaa326.org/v/members/semery/
EAA 668340, chapter 326 & IAC chapter 67
RV-8 N89SE first flight 12/26/2013
Yak55M, and the wife has an RV-4
There is nothing-absolute nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing around with Aeroplanes
(with apologies to Ratty)
2019
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  #2  
Old 03-14-2010, 07:54 AM
TSwezey TSwezey is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,848
Default

It's really not the engine that is the problem but everything up to the engine. There are a few or several on here running auto fuel with ethanol in their lycos.
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N110TD
RV-10 Vesta V8 LS2/BMA EFIS/One formerly flying at 3J1 Hobbs stopped at 150 hours
Savannah, GA and Ridgeland, SC
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  #3  
Old 03-14-2010, 09:15 AM
rv72004 rv72004 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 452
Default

Scott,
Am I correct that you mean a systen like Audi has which is called FSI ?
As far as I understand the fuel is much better atomized and therefore results in more power, cleaner burn etc. Also this is directly injected in the cylinder chamber right ? If so we would have to modify our cylinders.
All said though this would be a great advancement if it was ever done.
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RV7 flying
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  #4  
Old 03-14-2010, 11:21 AM
airguy's Avatar
airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 6,082
Default

Yes, it could be done. If your goal is to be able to burn E10 however, there is a more practical and simpler solution. Just bolt on any of the fine injection systems on the market (low pressure, analog, "dumb" but functional), do away with the engine-mounted fuel pump and put electric automotive-style pumps in, and replace all the O-rings with Vyton. You now have an ethanol-tolerant fuel system. The engine doesn't know or care - at least for E10.

The only reasons we currently don't run E10 (other than unsubstantiated fear-mongering about carrying capacity for water) is seal incompatibility (which we know how to solve) and fuel pump installations that induce vapor lock (which we know how to solve).
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Garden City, TX VAF 2023 dues paid
N16GN flying 1,200 hrs and counting on 91E10; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, IFD440, G5
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
Repeat Offender - 10 empennage in process.
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  #5  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:25 PM
SHIPCHIEF SHIPCHIEF is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,412
Default

EJ;
I think you are refering to Direct Cylinder Injection. That would be great, but a bit beyond what I was thinking when I posted.
I was thinking of Bosche type high pressure fuel injection in the 40 PSI range like cars use these days. With electric fuel pumps close to the tank.
I did have a Volkswagon CIS air valve thingie a few years ago, but decided it was a no-go for flight. Cludgy, heavy, not good inverted, pressure drop thru the mass flow valve...
I was thinking about digital or analog control of Bosche type injectors in the inlet tube @ the cylinder intake port. No machine work on the basic engine, just bolt on parts, to replace obsolete parts.
Would a Bosche low or high Impedance injector operate on a variable DC control voltage? Or does it require a pulsed ( digital) signal?
You know, could you use a rheostat to control fuel flow in limp home mode?
Greg N, Perhaps you are right and ethanol carburets fine too. I just **assumed** that the pressure and vigorous circulation thru the return regulator to the tank would **assure** the fuel would remain homogenous and reliable, based on personal experience with my 1986 Toyota pickup, which still ran (after a bit of trouble getting it started) with 6 quarts of water in the tank.
__________________
Scott Emery
http://gallery.eaa326.org/v/members/semery/
EAA 668340, chapter 326 & IAC chapter 67
RV-8 N89SE first flight 12/26/2013
Yak55M, and the wife has an RV-4
There is nothing-absolute nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing around with Aeroplanes
(with apologies to Ratty)
2019

Last edited by SHIPCHIEF : 03-20-2010 at 05:32 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:33 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
Default

I believe Ross Farnham has sold a few of his units for installation in a Lycoming 0360. It would be pulse time injection controlled by his EFI system.

http://sdsefi.com/air9.html
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  #7  
Old 03-22-2010, 05:00 AM
Jumbo's Avatar
Jumbo Jumbo is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Muenster, Germany, Europe.
Posts: 142
Default check Robert from Protek Performance

Hi,

Robert seems to be quite advanced on his system: www.protekperformance.com - ceratainly worth having a look. I am just short of cash at this time otherwise I would I would be more advanced on this one too .

Cheers, Heinz
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a.) Eggenfellner H-6 powered 4-seat Robin, PH-ERD 325+hrs since SEP 2008 .... counting
b.) bought flying & sold: Vans RV-4 with O-320, PH-EIL .... very sad ending - lost a friend
c.) bought flying at 51 TT: Vans RV-3A, PH-URZ .... now at 150 hrs (and having fun )
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  #8  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:58 PM
LarryT LarryT is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Battle Ground, WA
Posts: 426
Default Eagle EMS...

Is a system that wold be considered a "common rail" sytem. Uses 30 - 35 psi fuel pressure and pulse width electronically controlled port fuel injection. I think that is what you had in mind.

LarryT

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIPCHIEF View Post
EJ;
I think you are refering to Direct Cylinder Injection. That would be great, but a bit beyond what I was thinking when I posted.
I was thinking of Bosche type high pressure fuel injection in the 40 PSI range like cars use these days. With electric fuel pumps close to the tank.
I did have a Volkswagon CIS air valve thingie a few years ago, but decided it was a no-go for flight. Cludgy, heavy, not good inverted, pressure drop thru the mass flow valve...
I was thinking about digital or analog control of Bosche type injectors in the inlet tube @ the cylinder intake port. No machine work on the basic engine, just bolt on parts, to replace obsolete parts.
Would a Bosche low or high Impedance injector operate on a variable DC control voltage? Or does it require a pulsed ( digital) signal?
You know, could you use a rheostat to control fuel flow in limp home mode?
Greg N, Perhaps you are right and ethanol carburets fine too. I just **assumed** that the pressure and vigorous circulation thru the return regulator to the tank would **assure** the fuel would remain homogenous and reliable, based on personal experience with my 1986 Toyota pickup, which still ran (after a bit of trouble getting it started) with 6 quarts of water in the tank.
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  #9  
Old 03-22-2010, 08:21 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,869
Default

Tracy Crook's system has been installed on Lycs.

Not plug & play, but reasonably priced & proven tech.

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/eficont.html

Charlie
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  #10  
Old 03-22-2010, 09:33 PM
lancef53 lancef53 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Portland, ND
Posts: 424
Default

Don at airflow performance can set up a bendix system or his system for ethanol, up to 98%. He set mine up that way.

No need to confuse the use of ethanol with redesigning aircraft fuel injection systems, they are two different items.
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