LEDs Just to add to the debate

Shredder · #1 01-26-2010, 02:25 PM

Hi, I am a new member here and although I am building a RANS S-6S (for bush type flying) have read a lot on VAF. I am considering different Vans options for a future project and I hope you don't mind me adding to the discussion here. I really enjoy the debate here over the new LED options and the work Dan did comparing 2 options. Here is what I sent to the LED companies.

I am posting this letter on various forums and will post the replies... It's time to put up or shut up!

To: jargersi@whelen.com; dean@aeroleds.com; christian@aveoengineering.com
Jeff, Dean, and Christian

(Note: I am e-mailing this to all three LED companies that are involved in so much discussion on the various homebuilder forums. I chose Jeff and Dean because they have been part of the discussions. Christian, I chose your name for lack of a better place to start. Feel free to pass this on to whomever you choose.)

My name is Bill Shaffer and I am in the last 1-2 months of building a RANS S-6S. I am at the point where I must choose my lights. The new Whelen LED product is causing quite a stir among homebuilders and builders, as well as LED competitors, are taking note.

I read a lot on the RANS and VAF forums and I am intrigued by all the discussion. Like many experimental builders, TSOs are a guidance that does not always drive my decision, but offers guidelines to which I will not stray too far from. Hence the amateur homebuilt experimental category.

Now to the question at hand.

Which LEDs are the best bang for the buck, and which are just plain the brightest? I would love to see 3 planes with the Whelens, Aveos, and Aeros sitting next to each other, during daylight and at night, with lights on. That would answer 98% of the builder's questions. Probably not going to happen.

So I am wondering how close I can get to that? For now I am looking for information. Apples to apples numbers. What do you have to offer?

I have also considered trying to set up a visual, video recorded, unbiased test for potential customers to view video and compare the different choices from a purely visual observation. A simple test of lights mounted on a test bed. Would you be interested in participating in such a comparison?

Please share information as to why one should choose your product. Also include future price changes/products that may influence buyers. I will post this letter and your responses on various forums for others to see. I appreciate your honest, direct responses. Lawyers need not participate!

Thank you, Bill Shaffer
27 Year pilot from F-15s, to major airlines, to small experimentals. It's all fun.

rleffler · #2 01-26-2010, 02:44 PM

Bill,

I wish you luck with your excercise! I would be amazed if all three gentlemen participate. Jeff and Dean have been very active here on VAF. I was very surprized when Jeff announced recently that the new LED NAV/Strobe combination from Whelen doesn't meet FAA requirements.

It would be nice to have the vendors at OSH or SnF compete head to head. Unfortunately, I think the best comparisons have been done from Dan. I am doubtful that we'll get anymore. But I would be happy to be proven wrong.

bob

Dean_aeroleds · #3 01-26-2010, 05:47 PM

Hello Bill,

I presume that your question is mostly regarding the LED strobes since the LED nav and position light requirements are not as difficult to meet.

Strobes are measured in units of effective candela. Effective candela are determined using the equation EffectiveCandela = Candela-Seconds/(0.2 + Ton)

Candela seconds are units of candela integrated over the duration of the strobe flash pattern, and Ton is the total on time of the flash. The equation above was determined by human factors experiments early in the 20th century.

Prior to the 1980?s, aircraft strobes required 100 effective candela in the plane of the aircraft. This was raised to a minimum of 400 effective candela which is the current regulation.

The higher the effective candela, the brighter a strobe will appear to the human eye.

The AeroLEDs Pulsar NSP and Suntail products exceed the 400 effective candela requirement in the horizontal plane, and are eligible for meeting the FAA TSO. We are in the process of doing the testing and documentation for obtaining this TSO.

The Pulsar EXP only hits about 300 effective candela, and is as low as 100 effective candela in some directions. This is why it is experimental only.

For your RANs, I would recommend the Pulsar NSP since they provide nav/strobe/position lights on the wingtips in a compact package with light output that meets the FARs.

I have not measured all of the competitor products, so I can?t speak for them. I know that some models may meet the 400 effective candela output level, but I also know that many of them don?t.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC

Shredder · #4 01-26-2010, 08:26 PM

Dean,

Thanks for the quick response. (For those keeping score, he also e-mailed me the same message.)

Although strobe requirements are harder to meet, I still am interested on the comparing the brightness of nav and position lights. I am looking at the whole package and how close they are to meeting TSO/FARs.

Thanks for the information so far. Keep it coming if you have more, including nav/position.

Thanks, Bill

Shredder · #5 01-29-2010, 12:02 PM

From the Aveo CEO. If you want the pics I can forward the e-mail. Just ask.
Bill
From: Christian Nielsen (christian@strojkovengineering.com)
Sent: Thu 1/28/10 2:08 PM
To: Bill Shaffer (mrbillshaffer@hotmail.com)

Attachments: 18 attachments | Download all attachments (3.4 MB)
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Dear Bill,

Thanks for taking the time to write. Aveo prides itself on direct interface with our customer base and fans, and we encourage such inquiries as it gives us an opportunity to explain our products and company philosophy. When someone buys an Aveo product, it is a purchase of many, many hours of design, engineering and dedicated production as well as quality components and high tech manufacture.

I must first apologize for the lack of knowledge on my part of said forums that you referenced in your email. I am not a member or reader of such things due to time constraints of running my companies, so I am really not aware of what comments and discussions you are referring to -- so I will only stick to strictly engineering data and scientific facts as they seem to be more relevant to your query than marketing hype anyway.

You will find some of the answers you are looking for on my blog entries this coming week at www.aveoengineering.com. My entries of late have been limited due to a rather severe rotator cuff/biceps tendon rupture injury which is even impacting my typing right now, so I ask that you bear with any typos, etc. I also am taking my time in writing you so that I can incorporate as much as I can possibly say on the subject.

You asked me my opinion of the new Whelen light -- actually it disappoints me as Whelen has such market capture that I expected a better product from them. After a review of it, I fail to see how it can be "exciting" other than as a very inexpensive light..... Why is this my opinion? Having invested a couple hundred thousand dollars into establishing the leading led-array testing laboratory in all of Europe and one of the top labs in the world (you can see this incredible equipment at our website, http://www.strojkovengineering.com/d...-lab/index.php ), we know what we are talking about and can back it up with empirical measurements.

You can look right at the Whelen website and gather the facts you need.

Look at Whelen's photo of their rudder light and you will see that it has only 9 leds, and their wing light has only 13 leds for all functions (nav-strobe), so when they write in their pdf brochure such a claim as the "same performance" as competitors' lights that are higher priced it is a claim they simply cannot back up with performance measurements.

You can see what I consider to be an outrageous claim -- Why pay double (or more) for the same performance -- in the yellow type below in Whelen's pdf on their website:

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PoliceLine5.jpg

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RickWoodall · #6 01-29-2010, 03:27 PM

I sent you a pm, I would like to see the pics.

I am very interested in a complete lighting package. I have looked at all the various mixes and it gives me a headache. I expect to go with some company's complete set up, with rudder and taxi and landing etc etc. Seems nowadays that the package of enclosed lighting all from one manufacturer is a great way to go.

One of these days something will present itself as the best solution given my budget and interest in the led stuff.

Thanks for your work on this. Likely many of us in the same boat.

Dancing Panda · #7 01-29-2010, 03:46 PM

Searching around the full story is here......

http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/

rleffler · #8 01-29-2010, 03:56 PM

Interesting......

On Christian's blog he stated: "We are willing to offer free measurements in our labs if they cannot afford it. I own it, so I can offer it. All they need do is send us their lights and we can take measurements in our state-of-the-art lab, video record the entire testing and post it on our website and youtube for the world to see. We will show direct side-by-side videos of our lights and theirs, and we will post the graphs of the output from the advanced goniophotometer equipment. It should be clear from these videos and real-time recorded measurements what the truth is and what the marketing hype is. BILL, I INVITE YOU TO COME VISIT ME AND PARTICIPATE IN SAME AS AN UNBIASED WITNESS."

Wouldn't it be nice to get all the vendors in the same lab for compartive measurements? I know that's just a dream, but it would be nice to see an Aveo vs AeroLeds comparison. I don't even consider Whelen a contender at the moment.

bob

Dean_aeroleds · #9 01-29-2010, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rleffler

Interesting......

On Christian's blog he stated: "We are willing to offer free measurements in our labs if they cannot afford it. I own it, so I can offer it. All they need do is send us their lights and we can take measurements in our state-of-the-art lab, video record the entire testing and post it on our website and youtube for the world to see. We will show direct side-by-side videos of our lights and theirs, and we will post the graphs of the output from the advanced goniophotometer equipment. It should be clear from these videos and real-time recorded measurements what the truth is and what the marketing hype is. BILL, I INVITE YOU TO COME VISIT ME AND PARTICIPATE IN SAME AS AN UNBIASED WITNESS."

Wouldn't it be nice to get all the vendors in the same lab for compartive measurements? I know that's just a dream, but it would be nice to see an Aveo vs AeroLeds comparison. I don't even consider Whelen a contender at the moment.

bob

Bob,

It isn't necessary to use the same lab. Any certified photometric facility will produce accurate results. We are in the process of testing our products at a certified lab for submittal to the FAA as part of our TSO data package...

I am not really interested in sending any of our products to Aveo not matter what "free" testing they offer.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC

Shredder · #10 01-31-2010, 11:46 PM

I just got back from a trip and found I had not received the whole e-mail from Christian at Aveo. Here is the link to his blog and, as opposed to any implication that I may have some agenda, I only want to find a good light for a good deal. A great light for a good deal would be even better. What's a good deal? Anyway...

http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/

Bill