Flying with other plane

[RVWanabe]

Last Saturday I flew over to my buddies place. He lives on an airport. I went in circles while he flew up to meet me. We flew together for about a half hour. This is not the first time we have done this. Neither one of us has had any military nor formation training and we try not to get too close. One time though, we did get a little close and I tried to turn away from him and my plane seemed to actually go towards his. We have another buddy that was on the ground watching us and he began yelling on the radio ?use right rudder only!!? This seemed like a very useful suggestion at the time. My question to the group is?Will some of you that do fly formation write a post that gives tips on flying with another plane?not necessarily formation flying but just together. Some safety tips, how to form up and disengage etc?Thanks in advance Ivan.

[DeltaRomeo]

Hi Ivan.

I'll start with the recommendation to spend $70. 'The video' and 'the book' as they're known in these circles are the best $70 you'll ever spend if you are even remotely interested in formation (no such thing as 'not getting close' <g>).

One of the several places to buy them:
http://www.actechbooks.com/formation_flight_manual.htm

Start with those. The few dozen pages in that manual addresses everything - the do's and don'ts of it are worth the purchase price alone.

The 'join up' is, in my opinion, by far the most dangerous manuever and a complete understanding of it before getting anywhere near another plane would be my recommendation.

I'm not an instructor but am lucky enough to be based at a field with an ex T-38 IP and an ex F-4/F-14 driver. They preach safety more than anyone I've met and I model my actions and comments after their example.

Like they say, "We aren't sitting on ejection seats....we can't afford ANY slip ups" <G>.

Kindest,
Doug

PS: Buy that book! That's step one and you'll never regret reading it - plus, if your coworkers see it they will think you are TOO COOL.

PSS: Mike 'Kahuna' Stewart has compiled a pretty extensive website on formation. You can find it at http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/teamrv/

Originally Posted by RVWanabe

Last Saturday I flew over to my buddies place. He lives on an airport. I went in circles while he flew up to meet me. We flew together for about a half hour. This is not the first time we have done this. Neither one of us has had any military nor formation training and we try not to get too close. One time though, we did get a little close and I tried to turn away from him and my plane seemed to actually go towards his. We have another buddy that was on the ground watching us and he began yelling on the radio ?use right rudder only!!? This seemed like a very useful suggestion at the time. My question to the group is?Will some of you that do fly formation write a post that gives tips on flying with another plane?not necessarily formation flying but just together. Some safety tips, how to form up and disengage etc?Thanks in advance Ivan.

[Rosie]

What you are asking cannot be safely and adequately (nor should be) addressed in an online forum.

Stu McCurdy from Round Rock Texas is profile in this excellent article, and he is President of Formation Flying, Inc.

I don't know what part of the country you are in but Mike Stewart of Team RV puts on a fantastic formation ground school. He's based near Atlanta.

Rick Gray and the Ohio Valley RVators also put on excellent formation clinics every now and then.

Doug Reeve's group in Texas gets together on a regular basis as well.

We also have an active group here in Southern California, and VAF's formation forum is another place to check out.

Let us know where you are located, and we'll put you in touch with the right folks who can teach what is required of you to fly in close proximity to another plane Rosie

[Kyle Boatright]

There is a lot to formation flying. The book and video recommended by DeltaRomeo are excellent investments.

A pre-flight briefing is also something you want to add to your formation flying.

A couple of basic safety concepts:

1) The safest way to join-up is by limiting your maneuvering to one axis. Climb, descend, or accelerate into position. Don't try a multi-axis join-up such as a climbing, turning, and overtaking maneuver. Too many things to manage.

2) If you find yourself getting too close, you can adjust your trajectory in pitch faster than in any other axis. Even a standard category airplane is able to handle 3-4 G's in pitch, which is quite a bit.

Read the book. Do a preflight brief. Be safe.

[Ironflight]

For the folks who still want to go out and fly formation without all of the excellent instruction mentioned by the guys above, think about this...

Even when/if you and your buddies think you know exactly what you are doing, there are a lot of other pilots flying around our busy airports that do not... (do not know what YOU are doing, or what THEY are doing - take your pick...). You have no more (or less) rights to the airspace around an airport because you are in formation than the student pilot trying to figure out how to remember all the things that his instructor told him before his first solo last week. Doing things "out of the ordinary" in and around a traffic pattern can lead to dangerous close calls.

The last thing I want to do is rain on anyone's parade, and in fact, I enjoy formation flying myself. I only ask that we ALL engage in it with the utmost consideration for the innocent bystanders that might not understand what is going on around them. I've seen it too many times.

Play by the rules, and then go beyond them - because rules alone don't keep you safe, Thinking and good Risk Management will keep you safe!

Paul

[RVWanabe]

Well guys you are scaring me?Next time I fly with my buddy we are going to keep greater separation (not get close) and have a plan (know who is doing what before one does it). Your admonitions regarding close flying coupled with my memories of two close encounters are making me concerned. When I am flying by myself it is hard to realize (and visualize) how much I am wallowing all over the sky. Place another plane in proximity and that added visual reference helps us to see that we are not going where we think we are going. Trying to follow my buddy the other day I wondered how easy and hard it must have been to shoot another plane down during WWI and WWII. It?s hard to catch up and easy to over run?.make a turn?and where is he? Yet if you are above him and he is straight and level well. I think I will buy the book and video?Ivan.

[osxuser]

Do that, and get some instruction from someone who knows formation BOTH OF YOU. It's definitly not something to mess around with considering that most mid-airs are fatal for at least one of the parties involved.

[randylervold]

I would echo Rosie's comments exactly. Don't be daunted though, you, just like there rest of us, can learn to do it safely, it's just that when you are first learning you don't know how to judge distance or the control inputs to adjust positioning. Like all flying skills, it just needs to be learned. Informal "gaggle" flying is a dangerous thing and knowing what I know now I just won't do it. Either brief the flight and do it right, or give your pals a 10 minute head start and meet them there.

The FARs are vague on formation flying, but they do require that any ff be fully briefed. Therefore ad hoc join ups are not only a bad idea safetywise, but technically in violation of the FARs.

BTW, for anyone wanting to learn formation flying, we are putting on a clinic in June lead by Stu McCurdy, Mr. FFI...
http://www.romeolima.com/FormationClinic/

[dwilson]

Originally Posted by randylervold

BTW, for anyone wanting to learn formation flying, we are putting on a clinic in June lead by Stu McCurdy, Mr. FFI...
http://www.romeolima.com/FormationClinic/

Went to website. It says Sunday July 1st. My calander says that Sunday is July 2. What am I missing???


Duane

[randylervold]

You are correct, it is July 2nd, all other references were correct, front page corrected.