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  #31  
Old 01-04-2010, 09:03 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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It's been mentioned in passing earlier in the thread, but just to highlight it again, don't focus on the straight number of accidents. The number of RV's flying every year is increasing, so it's not unsurprising that the number of accidents also increases. One would hope that the rate of increase in number of completions is increasing faster than the rate of increase of number of accidents, but that's probably not the case.

Also, comparing to motorcycling on a highway may not be a fair comparison... Some motorcycle accidents are caused by the nut that connects the seat to the handlebars, sure. But the vast majority are still caused by inattentive drivers of cars, at no fault of the motorcycle involved. I don't think that can be said for the majority of RV accidents.
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:00 AM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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My objective was to generate discussion about safety. And I am all for people taking the time to go look in the database for themselves, but like the judge says to the jury, heed the admonition... Read them looking for the things we do, not the things we don't do.

Lets look at Paul's buckets:
VFR in IFR conditions - 3
Loss of Control on takeoff - 2
Los of Control on Landing - 1
Low Level Aerobatics - 2
Low Level Stall - 4
Formation gone wrong - 1

Everyone who flies has done one of these activites, many of us have done all of them in the past year.
Answer these questions honestly:
Have I flown into deteriorating weather?
Have I made 1 take-off in the preceeding 12 months where I was at the limit of my ability and had a gust hit me, I might have lost it?
Same question on landing except add a tire failed?
Have I done ANY Acro below 1500 feet not associated with a waiver?
Have I gotten slow even once in the base to final turn where wake turbulence might have induced a stall?
Have I flown formation once where something caused me to take quick evasive action?

If the answer just one of these questions was yes, then we're in "There but for the grace of God go I" category. I don't mean by this to imply that we all have to quit flying, but what I do mean is that we all need to acknowledge that we participate in exactly the same activities that killed our buddies. That means we have to honestly look at our own skill and abilities.

The rub is, none of these guys intended to crash. All of them thought they were capable of doing the thing that killed them. So then, again, we have to go back and look at ourselves in the mirror and ask, "Am I as good as I think I am?" I am an instructor, DPE, FAR 135 checkpilot, & CAF fighter checkpilot. I fly with lots of pilots, from airline captains to private applicants, and I can say with very strong certainty, that very few pilots are as good as we thing we are. (I am looking in the mirror too.)

All this is fine and good, but that the real question is, "So what can I do about that?" First off. Increase your margins, here are some sample examples:

If you think a 1000 ft or 3 miles is good enough for VFR X/C don't go unless it is 1500 ft or 5 miles.

If you think you can handle a 20 kt X-wind, use 15 as a limit.

If 1500 ft is your base for acro, use 2500.

If 60 kts is your min speed on base, use 70 kts.

And If you normally fly formation with anyone who comes along, commit to fly only with people you know and trust.

The second thing is, try to take annual training from the best pilots that you know. Embark on a quest of Continuous Quality Improvement (CQI) in your flying. Get new ratings, fly with instructors. because I fly with so many pilots, not only do I get to fly with some who are not as good as they think they are, I get to fly with some that are so good they make me want to hang up my headset.... Flying with really good pilots does 2 things, it makes me better, but more importantly, it makes me realize how much better I could/should be.

Business managers know that CQI is a journey and not a destination and we all must make a personal commitment to that in our flying. It is tough, but it is rewarding too, and hopefully it keeps us alive to keep flying.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Last edited by B25Flyer : 01-04-2010 at 10:29 AM.
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  #33  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:06 AM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Thomas View Post
I didn't read the posts so this point may have already been made.

There is less warbirds every year but more RV every year so looking only at death is misleading. Death/flying airplane or even better death/flying hours would be a better metric.
Actually the number of flying warbirds continues to increase. And please do not compare RV flying to Warbird flying. Warbirds are much more dangerous. We have exactly the same problems in the Warbird world, they are just much worse.

Accidents per flying hour is really tough because no one is keeping score. But really we are not there yet, unless you believe our current accident rate is acceptable. It is not.

The point is, that our accident rate is WAY TOO HIGH. For now, let's just agree on that and focus on lowering it.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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  #34  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:46 AM
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aviationgeek84 aviationgeek84 is offline
 
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Just wanted to thank Doug for putting this together. Great perspective for RV pilots and pilots in general.
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  #35  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:52 AM
TThurston TThurston is offline
 
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Location: Orem, UT
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Default Aerobatic RV's

Some posts have noted the low rate of RV-10 accidents. Perhaps I didn't see all the reports, but I only found one instance of an RV-9 accident (non-fatal), and that seemed to be an Eggenfellner powerplant failure. Perhaps non-aerobatic RV's are somewhat less likely to be flown in manner that results in these sorts of accidents. Of course, it could also be that there are fewer RV-9's and RV-10's flying.
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  #36  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:57 AM
patterson patterson is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queen Creek AZ
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Default AFR

try to take annual training from the best pilots that you know. Embark on a quest of Continuous Quality Improvement (CQI) in your flying. Get new ratings, fly with instructors. because I fly with so many pilots, not only do I get to fly with some who are not as good as they think they are, I get to fly with some that are so good they make me want to hang up my headset.... Flying with really good pilots does 2 things, it makes me better, but more importantly, it makes me realize how much better I could/should be. Doug Rozendall

I wanted to highlight what Doug wrote about getting more training and consistently trying to learn to be a better, more skillful pilot. I have set my Bi-Annual requirements to Annual Flight Review. I do this with a pilot that I believe to be one of the best flying today, and I ask him to put me through all the requirements for BFR and more.

Reminds me...it's time for my AFR in April. Better get ready.

Ron
RV-4
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  #37  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:13 AM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patterson View Post
try to take annual training from the best pilots that you know. Embark on a quest of Continuous Quality Improvement (CQI) in your flying. Get new ratings, fly with instructors. because I fly with so many pilots, not only do I get to fly with some who are not as good as they think they are, I get to fly with some that are so good they make me want to hang up my headset.... Flying with really good pilots does 2 things, it makes me better, but more importantly, it makes me realize how much better I could/should be. Doug Rozendall


Reminds me...it's time for my AFR in April. Better get ready.

Ron
RV-4
As I was reading Ron's post another thing hit me. When flying with pilots that are really good, they always try to pick my brain to figure out what they can learn from me.

An example is Warren Pietsch, an Airshow pilot from Minot ND. Warren is my ACE which means he issued and renews my low-level aerobatic card. Warren is more comfortable in an airplane upside down clipping a ribbon at 10 feet than I am in a steep turn at 1500. He wears an airplane but when ever we fly together, he is always asking me questions and trying to learn....

Another is Matt Younkin. Matt flies so much better than I could ever dream and yet he is always calling asking me about this, that or the other thing because he want to know and learn everything he can about everything he flies....

Ya suppose that is how they got that good? Duh....

Tailwinds,
Doug
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  #38  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:27 AM
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Buggsy2 Buggsy2 is offline
 
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Default Most accidents I've read about...

Most accidents I've read about actually start hours, days, or months and years before the actual incident. Often the pilot is doing something stupid, careless, or thoughtless. Even the RV accidents related to fuel problems in the first few hours: clearly something built wrong.

My first flight is still 2 or 3 years from now, but there is much that can be done to make it safer now. Likewise my current flying can be safer now with a proper attitude and approach to not just flying, but life in general.

Motorcycles and small aircraft may have about the same accident rate, but with airplanes we control much more of the situations than motorcyclists, who have to contend with clueless auto drivers. So, let's use that control we have!
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  #39  
Old 01-04-2010, 03:12 PM
steveciha steveciha is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 89
Default How about an Oshkosh forum?

After flying RV's for 12 years now and staying alive doing it, those statistics were alarming. I wish someone with the knowledge and ability would carefully dissect a few of these accidents and incorporate them into an Airventure forum on RV Safety.

Steve Ciha
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  #40  
Old 01-04-2010, 04:22 PM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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Default That is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveciha View Post
After flying RV's for 12 years now and staying alive doing it, those statistics were alarming. I wish someone with the knowledge and ability would carefully dissect a few of these accidents and incorporate them into an Airventure forum on RV Safety.

Steve Ciha
Perhaps this was already mentioned, but how do these compare to general GA stats? Is there anything specific to RV's that show a common repeating problem?
If we are talking VFR flight into IMC, that is not really any different than any other airplane, but if there is something like a higher percentage of base to final stalls or other data, that could be really usefull in trying to understand, and then train for.

If we are just on the norm with other GA accident numbers and type, the RV is no longer unique.

The sobering part of all of this is we are human animals. Even if we know what might kill us, train to keep away from it, we still can fail. I watched a video called "Flying the P-38 by Jeff Ethel" in which he forewarns the viewer of the "widowmaker" fuel management system of that airplane. The next year he died in a P-38 in Tillamook Oregon caused by a fuel management issue. Very sad. One of the most experienced War Bird pilots of our time, but still, just human, like you and me.
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