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01-03-2010, 06:11 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boston area
Posts: 128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob
I once read somewhere that there are main causes which account for 90% of accidents: Approach/departure stalls, fuel mismanagement, and continued VFR into instrument conditions. These accidents are very, very preventable. Eliminating the accidents that fall into these three categories from all fatal accidents, you take flying danger from being mid-way between car and motorcycle travel to way better than by car.
Two RV fatalities I'm familiar with from the past year fall into bucket #1. Both stalled on approach, one was off-field when the engine quit.
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Okay so what percentage were low-level aerobatics, buzz jobs or other blatantly "unauthorized" maneuvers?
I believe we could make flying EA as safe as cars. A good first step would be to knock off all of that nonsense way outside the regs. Then instead of spending resources cataloging and analyzing that repetitious bucket we can concentrate on stuff that requires a bit more gray matter, like making fuel and fuel systems more reliable.
__________________
Richard
RV9: tail complete
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01-03-2010, 06:38 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Trabuco Canyon, California
Posts: 95
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Flying through Thunderstorms doesn't help either...
This RV-7A lost the tail-feathers in either turbulance or the Airsheen exceeded the VNE and they fluttered off:
The flight track then turns back northwestward and penetrates the area of thunderstorms. A witness stated that the clouds in the
vicinity of the crash site were overcast about 200 feet with light rain and distant thunder. Examination of the airplane revealed the
vertical stabilizer and rudders separated and were not located. Examination of a tail cone section revealed fracture surfaces on the
front and rear spar, and the rear doubler assembly exhibited slant-fracture features consistent with ductile overload due to exceeding
the design limits. There was no evidence of preexisting damage due to fatigue or corrosion.
Updated at Dec 15 2009 10:25AM
In Florida...T storm country. Even a fully aerobatic Aircraft can't fight a T Storm.
These reports are sad...  and telling.
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01-03-2010, 06:58 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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One thing I've noticed over the year and half I've been participating in VAF Forums is that an awful lot of encouragement for bad behavior happens here.
Specifically when someone shoots live video of them flying an RV-#, posts it on youtube and then posts the link on VAF. So we all click on the link and see a beautifully constructed RV-# flying on a beautiful day conducting low level (less than 200ft I'd say) aerobatics with another RV-# in trail shooting the film. Then we see other video of formations of RV's flying very low level over the countryside, rivers and lakes.
All the comments in the thread give the pilots tons of encouragement and atta-boys for having such a nice airplane and flying so WELL. Although I've never commented after watching, I wish I had. Then next one I see however will include a comment like this -
"Hey, you don't own that airspace and you have no right to endanger the public, or yourself for that matter, not to mention you jeopardize all of our rights to fly as freely as we do. So knock it off or something really diplomatic like that
Peer Policing can be a powerful force.
CDR Ken Kopp, USN
Last edited by rv6rick : 01-03-2010 at 07:44 PM.
Reason: removed expletive
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01-03-2010, 07:02 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Stuart, FL /Hartford, CT/Virgin Gorda,BVI
Posts: 3,122
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one fatality in florida......
[quote=delusional;392506]Okay so what percentage were low-level aerobatics, buzz jobs or other blatantly "unauthorized" maneuvers?
i know of one fatality in florida in 09. low level buzz job over a group of people. 
__________________
TURBO YES =VAF= Payed Jan2019
Ed D'Arcy
RV6-A 5,200+ hrs, R-44 1,600 hrs, Helicycle 320 hrs, gyro sold,35,000 miles flown in 2015 
Stuart, Fl / S WINDSOR,Ct / Virgin Gorda, BVI - under major repair from hurricane damage
VAF #840 EAA AOPA FAC FABA QB SPA
addicted pickle ball player
https://i.postimg.cc/tn3h4svg/IMG-3101.jpg
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01-03-2010, 07:14 PM
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fugio ergo sum
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Carlsbad, NM
Posts: 1,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999
One thing I've noticed over the year and half I've been participating in VAF Forums is that an awful lot of encouragement for bad behavior happens here...
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Ken, I think your misgivings are valid. I remember remarking to another person on this site that I was afraid the videos were going to turn into a "watch this" deal that would encourage people do do stupid things. I don't know if that has really happened and I suspect people do get negative feedback, privately. I know I have gotten plenty of it when posting about perfectly legal things (and I think perfectly safe things).
Despite the concerns, I really enjoy some of the videos. I think of "Tree Top Flyer" in particular. No way I'm going to criticize that guy. He knows what he is doing, legal or not.
I'm expecting a lot of response to your post.
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Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
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01-03-2010, 07:18 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New Smyrna Beach, FL
Posts: 1,339
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I finished my CFI renewal a couple of months ago and one of the topics in the course was the fact that "maneuvering" flying accounts for the highest (25%) of fatal GA accidents. Followed by descent/approach, weather, and takeoff/climb. A significant percentage of the fatal "maneuvering" accidents are identified as having these primary causes: - buzzing (a whopping 1/3 of "maneuvering" accidents
- traffic pattern distractions
- inadvertent stall/spin
- lack of piloting skills
additionally, aerobatics, formation flying, canyon flying, and other "special operations" are identified as frequent factors. The report notes that a lack of training and proficiency in these operations is a common thread in these fatal accidents.
These numbers are from the Nall Report and I believe they are from 2006.
I watched a T-34 do some pretty spectacular buzzing after departing a fly-in breakfast a couple of days ago. I would guess that a couple of the pullouts were within 25 ft. of the ground and directly over people, airplanes and structures. I have no idea if the pilot was trained or proficient in these types of maneuvers, but I could not help but think about these statistics as I watched.
So, what does all this mean? Well, I think B25Flyer pretty much has it right. "We have met the enemy and he is us!"
__________________
David Maib
RV-10 N380DM
New Smyrna Beach, FL
VAF Paid 1/21/2020
"In '69 I was 21, and I called the road my own"
Jackson Browne
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01-03-2010, 08:32 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,324
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T-shirt philosophy
John Clark ATP, CFI
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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01-03-2010, 09:33 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Waco, Texas
Posts: 1,658
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I always enjoy your posts, Doug.
Ken: You're spot on.
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01-03-2010, 09:49 PM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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I am with Ken on this one - we do tend to encourage unsafe behavior when we Ooh and Ahh over things that are actually illegal. I have posted a few aerobatic videos on YouTube - all shot at thousands of feet of altitude, usually above the clouds (that's how high!) because frankly, I have no training on low level aerobatics, and even if I did there are very specific conditions under which they can legally be performed.
When I see someone doing something spectacular in the airport traffic area, and the area is not currently under a low-level air show waiver, my reaction is usually negative, even when everyone else is amazed. I am impressed by good judgment, not by spectacle. I have spent too long on the cutting edge of aerospace, and watched people cross over that line, never to return - more often than I want to remember. My profession is one of making the most exciting thing in the world as boring as possible. That might disappoint some folks, but it keeps others alive.
As to last year's statistics, thanks for bring it up Doug! It made me take a half hour and go look up the NTSB site myself. I searched the 2009 database for "RV", and got 49 hits, and the 17 fatalities you mentioned. (Bob Milne's accident was in 2008 Phil - time does fly....). I built a quick spreadsheet with the data, and read the findings or preliminary reports (whichever was present) to get a feel for the cause of the accidents. Of the thirteen fatal accidents, I'd put them in the following bins:
VFR in IFR conditions - 3
Loss of Control on takeoff - 2
Los of Control on Landing - 1
Low Level Aerobatics - 2
Low Level Stall - 4
Formation gone wrong - 1
We can argue over a few of the buckets, but it's only a crude parsing - it's not intended to be complete and comprehensive. The best thing we can do is to ignite everyone's curiosity enough to go look them up themselves, and take the hour necessary to read the reports. Make your own comparisons to operations you are familiar with. And don't be deluded - accidents happen to folks with tens of thousands of hours as well as those with only a few.
I'd sure like to bury less friends each year rather than more.
Paul
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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01-03-2010, 10:20 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mtns of N.E. Georgia
Posts: 1,322
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Red Neck Flying
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
I'd sure like to bury less friends each year rather than more.
Paul
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I'm with Iron on this one. The famous Red Neck Quote "Hey ya'll watch this" is an easy trap to fall into when you're flying a hot rod like an RV.
If you're going to do aerobatics or formation, get the proper training. Become a professional, not a statistic.
-------Oh yeah; Rocket Bob, I like your other avitar better.------ 
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LAUS DEO
Mannan J.Thomason, MSGT. USAF (RET)
VAF788
"Bucket List" checkoff in progress!
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