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01-09-2010, 10:31 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 358
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Toolbuilder, I agree that lots of work needs to be done on basic stick and rudder skills.... But whatever level the skills are at, whether it be, not good enough to fly, or so good that I think I could never inadvertently stall an airplane, ADM or judgment is a major factor in that equation. Good pilots work tirelessly on both in an endless journey of self improvement and self awarness.
With regard to maintenance and workmanship, I yield to those qualified to discuss the issues in that area, and encourage that discussion here as well.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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01-09-2010, 10:42 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
....The famous Dan Lloyd RV10 accident is an incident that fully highlights the problem. In that case the facts when they fully emerged quite clearly indicated that the cause of the fatality was appalling workmanship and flawed design decisions. And yet people continue to throw up the accident as another example of poor pilotage....
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The Lloyd accident would have been a non-event if he had elected to land in any of corn fields in the area. Instead he landed going into a road from the side and flipped over on it.
Yes, the event was started with a mechanical failure of sorts, but it did not have to end the way it did. The last part was pilot controllable and it is a mystery why it ended the way it did.
I don't place all that much stock in government statistics. They have a difficult time getting anything right.
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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01-09-2010, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8RV
I've considered asking the A&P/IA on our field to join me for my first condition inspection. I'd pay him, of course, and would feel MUCH better when I'm done, knowing that someone who knows intimately the innards of an engine has lent a hand.
My only concern is that the time he has visited my hangar and nosed around, he just grins like a kid in a candy store. "Man, I LOVE a brand-new plane ... you should see what I usually have to work on..." 
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Don,
I think you just answered your own question......
Tailwinds,
Doug
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01-09-2010, 11:45 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer
Doug Rozendaal:
. . .
I like Steve have 12-years flying my RV. I have at least 14-RV friends that have had fatal accidents. IMHO, one accident is one to many.
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OUCH! Now that's a sad statistic!
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01-09-2010, 11:57 AM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,324
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The Chain
Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator
The Lloyd accident would have been a non-event if he had elected to land in any of corn fields in the area. Instead he landed going into a road from the side and flipped over on it.
Yes, the event was started with a mechanical failure of sorts, but it did not have to end the way it did. The last part was pilot controllable and it is a mystery why it ended the way it did.
I don't place all that much stock in government statistics. They have a difficult time getting anything right.
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Any aircraft accident/incident/crash, is the result of a chain of events. The Dan Lloyd event is a perfect example. The chain started months or years before the crash in the form of poor engineering decisions and being in a rush to go flying. The list of inoperative or uncalibrated equipment combined with the lack of training was frightening. The final link was the emergency landing. This, I suspect, involved trying to "save that airplane" rather than landing in an open corn field.
John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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01-09-2010, 12:56 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Orem, UT
Posts: 213
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What do I do myself?
Well...
Yesterday I spent about an hour and a half practicing basic stick and rudder skills. Part of good decision making for me includes realizing that some of my flying time should be spent practicing basic skills, not just going out and flying around or getting from point A to point B. I'm still a new pilot (only about 225 hours over three years).
Before the flight I made a detailed checklist of skills to review and tasks to accomplish. It mostly included stuff like a flight review, but also a few that might not be. Some of them were inspired by reading the articles in the Safety section of Van's Airforce, http://www.vansairforce.net/safety.htm. After the flight I spent some time reviewing the list, sort of grading myself and how I did, and noting where I need to improve.
One of my resolutions for this year is to do a "general practice" flight like this on a regular basis. I want to keep sharp, and hopefully get a bit sharper.
Also, regarding the other side of the issue -- decision making skills...
Before going to the airport I also wrote down a list of questions regarding the plane that I fly (not an RV yet) and spent some time discussing them with the guy I rent my plane from. He spent several years flying for the company that builds the plane, and wrote the ASA book about the plane. I'm lucky to have access to such a good resource.
So for me, I try to practice my basic skills, and improve the information I have that allows me to make good decisions. Hopefully, this process is an exercise in good decision making, so that that my good decision making skills are not getting rusty either. Hopefully, they're getting better.
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01-09-2010, 02:02 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 138
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Thanks Doug
First of all, thank you Doug (and the others) for what I think is the most enlightened internet forum discussion I have read on aviation safety. It is refreshing to see people face the statistics squarely and deal with some sobering realities.
When I first started into flying and then into RV building, I too was concerned with the apparent unusually high numbers of deaths amongst RVers considering the relatively few airplanes that were flying at the time. I too figured that the raw probabilities of me dying in my (someday-to-be-completed) RV were unpleasantly possible.
I noted that may of the crashes seemed to result from pilots doing stupid things - exercising poor ADM. But I wonder, how many fatalities result from the engineering decisions that are made when our airplanes are designed and built? I am not singling out RVs in this, but since we are airplane builders here, don't we make decisions and trade-offs in the building of our aircraft that may leave us vulnerable? Airplanes have to be light and small to fly, but how light and how small? What if we chose to put more weight into safety systems at the expense of payload or performance? Could we make our airplanes more survivable in a crash?
By trade, I am an embedded software engineer - I develop software for machines that operate in real time, and I specialize in aircraft and defense related software development. I have many times toyed with ideas about how to reduce crash consequences through software controlled systems. Like, how about a system that fires a set of small one time use rockets to slow an aircraft just before impact? Or a system that mixes a chemical into the fuel tanks just before an impact to inert the fuel thus avoiding or reducing the fire after the crash? What about airbags and crushable foam around the pilot? What about a better method of getting a pilot out of the airplane and into a parachute than currently exists? What about NASCAR-like flamesuits?
Let's say any of these systems or others existed - what amount of performance would you be willing to give up or how much would you be willing to pay to have a decent chance of surviving a crash? - One hundred pounds of payload?
- Fifty knots less top speed?
- 500 extra building hours?
- 400 miles less cruising range?
- $20,000 extra cost to build?
???
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01-09-2010, 04:09 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 672
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Stick shaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomex Maximus
Let's say any of these systems or others existed - what amount of performance would you be willing to give up or how much would you be willing to pay to have a decent chance of surviving a crash? - One hundred pounds of payload?
- Fifty knots less top speed?
- 500 extra building hours?
- 400 miles less cruising range?
- $20,000 extra cost to build?
???
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How about something that weighs say 1/2 pound, costs $50, is assembled by a homebuilder and prevents a crash to begin with? Somebody find or design us a stick shaker that hooks up to our AOA or stall warning systems. I have no idea how the real ones work, but when I flew the new AT-6 Texan simulator at Vance AFB few months ago, it made me instinctively relax pressure on the stick immediately and I didn't even know it was there until it activated. It amazes me how effective it is. Maybe an eccentric wobble wheel device driven by a small electric motor? On a lighter note, how about an electric fence charger hooked up to the stick?  Seriously, I believe a shaker could save people from some of those base to final crashes.
__________________
Joe Schneider
RV-7, IO-360, BA Hartzell, N847CR
Flying since 2008
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01-09-2010, 04:57 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 672
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To offer you a little encouragement...
You gentlemen may have already saved some lives. Mine for instance? There was a thread last summer about preparing for Oshkosh. One suggestion was to load the RV up with the weight you'd be carrying and fly a simulated Ripon - Fisk arrival. I did that and even though I had done c.g. testing during phase 1, I still learned a few things about how the 7 handles. I was able to experiment with partial flap settings and simulated forced turns at slow speeds. Then we loaded the airplane with the actual gear and the spouse and I went up and did it again. Then we launched. On arrival day, I had a stearman turn in front of me at Ripon. In spite of flying less than 80 - 85 mph with a bit of flaps out, I gained on him. We were just at the 1/2 mile in-trail minimun distance when we reached Fisk. Thankfully, the "Rock your Wings" guys gave him and I a choice of runways. He choose one so I chose the other to get out from behind him. Unfortunately, when the rock your wings call came on base, there was an airplane stopped dead on 35L, another airplane on final and me about to turn final. The tower was asking the guy to clear the runway, but it wasn't going to happen soon enough. I was now about 2/3 of the way down final... muttering "c'mon clear the runway" under my breath, then, just as I was about to go around the tower blurted out, blue & white low wing on final... go around or take 35R. By this time I was only a few hundred feet above the threshold and my mind was already in high gear. There was traffic everywhere, and getting back in line back at Ripon had its own high risks as the conga line had filled quickly, (based on the radio traffic). Feeling wary but cognizant of the RV's aft but within limits c.g., I made the decision to slip over to the taxiway, (35R). I glanced over my right shoulder to check six and used the minimum bank necessary, and just as I was about to flair the tower told me... "RV GO AROUND, NO NEVER MIND YOU'RE OKAY, I thought you were still lined up on 35 L"! Anyway, my somewhat destabilized approach resulted in a carrier landing any Navy pilot would be proud of. But thanks to you guys, I was ready for the situation and pulled it off, even though it took some low level banking to do it. Some will no doubt question my decision not to go around, but it was a judgement call based on the other traffic behind and beside me as well as coming in from the other directions. I felt this decision was the best one and I would do it again. I knew I could do it because I had practiced for it. This was my third time piloting in to OSH so I wasn't a rookie. The point of the story is that if we listen to the experienced among us and humble ourselves a bit, we might just survive to enjoy this hobby for a long time.
__________________
Joe Schneider
RV-7, IO-360, BA Hartzell, N847CR
Flying since 2008
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01-09-2010, 05:14 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA State
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveman
How about something that weighs say 1/2 pound, costs $50, is assembled by a homebuilder and prevents a crash to begin with? Somebody find or design us a stick shaker that hooks up to our AOA or stall warning systems. I have no idea how the real ones work, but when I flew the new AT-6 Texan simulator at Vance AFB few months ago, it made me instinctively relax pressure on the stick immediately and I didn't even know it was there until it activated. It amazes me how effective it is. Maybe an eccentric wobble wheel device driven by a small electric motor? On a lighter note, how about an electric fence charger hooked up to the stick?  Seriously, I believe a shaker could save people from some of those base to final crashes.
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To my mind an audio signal output from an AOA feeding the pilot's headset would be the way to go. An example would be something that gives zero input (quiet) when AOA is in the "green", begins clicking once it enters the "yellow" and clicks faster as it approaches "red", and once you hit red you get a solid tone. A set up like this would be unnoticeable to the pilot and not "clutter" the environment unless the AOA approaches a condition that warrants some attention. Glider drivers routinely use audio input for variometers and other instrumentation to monitor KEY information while keeping their heads up and eyes outside the cockpit where they belong. Integrating the audio input into the decsion making process becomes very easy and instinctive in a short period of time. When I read about stall/spin "in the pattern" type of accidents I think about this, and it sure seems like it could provide the critical "heads up" regarding a deteriorating situation that the distracted pilot needs to correct BEFORE things really go south.
I thought I read on this forum that GRT was working on something along these lines (or was it AFS?). Since the AOA's for GRT, AFS and Dynon are electronic in nature how difficult could it be to add this feature?
Lastly, this type of input to the pilot should not be viewed as an alternative to ADM or pilot proficiency, but I believe that something simple and inexpensive like this would be used, and would save lives!
__________________
Will McClain
N954WM (Reserved)
Last edited by WhiskeyMike : 01-09-2010 at 05:34 PM.
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