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  #91  
Old 01-08-2010, 10:09 AM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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Default With all due respect...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
This is a generally accepted, safe statement... But not entirely true. Many factors contribute to a safe recovery from this situation. How high are you? Is it a full turn? half, quarter? What type of airplane?

I was up cutting toilet paper rolls once and pulled so hard in a left turn (had to get the "kill") that the airplane snap rolled 180 degrees to the right - it went from a vertical bank left to right in the blink of an eye. However, I unloaded the wing and stomped on the rudder halfway through and got it stopped in an instant. This was in essence a "base to final" stall scenario. Though I was nice and high when this happened, there was no noticeable altitude loss.

Avoiding the base-final stall/spin through proper stick and rudder skills is what we strive for, no doubt, and it deserves a healthy amount of respect. However, it is not always a death sentence if one knows how to handle an airplane. After all, Sean Tucker performs low altitude stall/spin maneuvers all the time... And it isn't the waiver issued by the FAA that makes it safe - it's stick and rudder skills.
An accelerated stall, your snap roll, is not a typical base to final scenerio at all. Read the accident reports. Most witness report a wing wagging, slushing scenerio prior to stall, a low speed event, low g event.
I have seen Sean's act, held the ribbon for him once. He may recover from a low altitude spin, but I have never seen him enter one at pattern altitude.
I believe it is a death sentence in an RV as I have never heard of anyone recovering from a base to final spin. Of course, nobody would probably advertise they did it.
I am sure it depends on the type of airplane, absolutely, but this discussion is about RV safety. I have spun my 6. There is no way I could recover from a base to final spin at pattern altitude in an RV regardless of my stick and rudder skills. I lost 500' in the 1st 1/4 turn, and you cant stop and recover nose down.
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  #92  
Old 01-08-2010, 10:15 AM
the_other_dougreeves the_other_dougreeves is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
The emphasis has to be on stall recognition, recovery, and avoidance. There is no such thing as spin recovery in the traffic pattern.
I agree that the emphasis should be on stalls. If the airplane doesn't stall, it won't spin, period. Stall recognition, prevention and recovery is more important than spin training. I've seen too many pilots afraid of stalling and get WAY too aggressive in recovery.

But if the airplane approaches an incipient spin, even in the patten, you should just give up since there's no spin recovery in the pattern? I'm not going to, nor am I going to teach my students to. We hear about the pattern stall/spin accidents where there was no recovery since the NTSB investigates them, but we don't hear about all the recoveries since they have happier endings.

Part of the importance of spin training - to me, anyway - is to understand what a spin looks like, what the airplane feels like when it is starting to enter it and how to recover. Does the student / pilot know how to use the rudder in an incipient stall/spin? If you don't practice it, you aren't going to know what it looks and feels like and how you can recover with the minimum loss of altitude. Spin training isn't all about letting the aircraft get into a nice autorotating spin and recovering (although it is fun), it's also about proper recovery from spin entry and incipient spins. I practice spin entry both for the pattern turn scenario and from thermaling (sailplanes only).

Spins are a bit like many other issues in safety, aircraft or otherwise. You can say "never stall, and you never need to worry about spinning". To me, this is a lot like "there's no need for VFR pilots to get instrument training, since they should never fly into IMC."

Besides not stalling the other thing you can do is keep the ball centered / yawstring straight. RVs don't seem to require a lot of rudder to stay coordinated in turns, but this is not true of all aircraft.

TODR
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  #93  
Old 01-08-2010, 11:01 AM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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Default Airplanes Spin differently....

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_other_dougreeves View Post
I agree that the emphasis should be on stalls. If the airplane doesn't stall, it won't spin, period. Stall recognition, prevention and recovery is more important than spin training. I've seen too many pilots afraid of stalling and get WAY too aggressive in recovery.

But if the airplane approaches an incipient spin, even in the patten, you should just give up since there's no spin recovery in the pattern? I'm not going to, nor am I going to teach my students to. We hear about the pattern stall/spin accidents where there was no recovery since the NTSB investigates them, but we don't hear about all the recoveries since they have happier endings.

Part of the importance of spin training - to me, anyway - is to understand what a spin looks like, what the airplane feels like when it is starting to enter it and how to recover. Does the student / pilot know how to use the rudder in an incipient stall/spin? If you don't practice it, you aren't going to know what it looks and feels like and how you can recover with the minimum loss of altitude. Spin training isn't all about letting the aircraft get into a nice autorotating spin and recovering (although it is fun), it's also about proper recovery from spin entry and incipient spins. I practice spin entry both for the pattern turn scenario and from thermaling (sailplanes only).

Spins are a bit like many other issues in safety, aircraft or otherwise. You can say "never stall, and you never need to worry about spinning". To me, this is a lot like "there's no need for VFR pilots to get instrument training, since they should never fly into IMC."

Besides not stalling the other thing you can do is keep the ball centered / yawstring straight. RVs don't seem to require a lot of rudder to stay coordinated in turns, but this is not true of all aircraft.

TODR
So, how do you practice spinning in an aicraft prohibited from spins? You can practice in another type, but that will behave differently.
I do practice spins in my Bucker, a pussycat in spins, and they are fun. However, I dont know if that skill set translates to my RV. I am sure it doesnt hurt.
Your other points are well taken and yes, there is no substitute for any kind of practice or training, spins or otherwise.
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  #94  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:07 PM
whifof100ll whifof100ll is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
So, how do you practice spinning in an aicraft prohibited from spins? You can practice in another type, but that will behave differently.
I do practice spins in my Bucker, a pussycat in spins, and they are fun. However, I dont know if that skill set translates to my RV. I am sure it doesnt hurt.
Your other points are well taken and yes, there is no substitute for any kind of practice or training, spins or otherwise.
If you are competent in spins and feel it is a benifit to your safety training, you might consider practicing spins in your RV-6? I don't know about your RV-6, but in mine, I tested to 2 turn spins during Phase 1. I've read lots of bad stuff about RV-6 spins, but my experience is that if you are within Van's suggested W&B envelope for acro in the RV-6 (1375#, 68.7-75.3"), 2 turn or less spins are great. I do not enter them below 3K ft AGL, but the altitude loss does not seem to be worse than a C150 aerobat. My RV-6 goes into a spin rather abruptly and spins kind of quick, so it took me by surprise the first time I tried it. When I apply anti spin control, the spin stops immediately. Now that I'm used to it, I find them lots of fun. I've not tried more than a 2 turn spin because of other posts on the topic and I just chicken out. I definitly recommend against trying spins (or any acro) when operating outside of the acro CG limits van's recommends.
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  #95  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:21 PM
the_other_dougreeves the_other_dougreeves is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
So, how do you practice spinning in an aicraft prohibited from spins? You can practice in another type, but that will behave differently.
Excellent point. Unfortunately I don't think there is a good answer. My suggestion would be at some point, getting practice spinning in different aircraft. The Citabria and Decathalon are fairly widely available for instruction and spin nicely. Also try spinning at different CGs, since that will affect spin characteristics. (When we practice spinning in the ASK21, we normally use one more tail weight than the chart calls for, in order to allow the glider to get in a nice fully developed spin.)

TODR
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  #96  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:25 PM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post

I maintain the focus here has to be on basic flying skills because so many guys do not fly enough to stay proficient. ADM is important, no question, but we do not have the luxury of class room training as do military and airline operations. I dare say, unless the pilot is a current CFI or a professional in the military or commercial transportation, he does not know much about ADM. How could he with the cost and time constraints of training for the typical new pilot?
David,

I must strongly disagree. To say that we can not, and should not, discuss and learn ADM is in a forum like this is wrong.

I believe that ADM can be more effectively taught in a forum like this than basic flying skills.

The costs and time constraints that you accurately mention are exactly why we need to have discussions like this, so that those not in Commercial or Military aviation can learn from some very highly experienced pilots who have that knowledge and experience and can share it here.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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  #97  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:36 PM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
So, how do you practice spinning in an aicraft prohibited from spins? You can practice in another type, but that will behave differently.
The reason why spin training transfers between most airplanes is because most are very spin resistant. The big deal about spin training is that unless you have done enough spins to be somewhat comfortable, when it happens, even if intentional, some folks brain locks up.

If a pilot has been taught PARE and completes any 2 of the steps, most GA airplanes will stop spinning. If they lock up and keep pulling the stick back and try to stop the spin with outside aileron, it will tighten up.

Being able to recognize and react are the keys steps and that skill is very transferable....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

PS
PARE = Power-idle Ailerons-neutral Rudder-opposite Elevator-neutral.

Power to idle and Let go works in most airplanes, but in the T-6 with an Aft CG it doesn't so I teach PARE.
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  #98  
Old 01-08-2010, 01:46 PM
breister breister is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by B25Flyer View Post
The reason why spin training transfers between most airplanes is because most are very spin resistant. The big deal about spin training is that unless you have done enough spins to be somewhat comfortable, when it happens, even if intentional, some folks brain locks up.

If a pilot has been taught PARE and completes any 2 of the steps, most GA airplanes will stop spinning. If they lock up and keep pulling the stick back and try to stop the spin with outside aileron, it will tighten up.

Being able to recognize and react are the keys steps and that skill is very transferable....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

PS
PARE = Power-idle Ailerons-neutral Rudder-opposite Elevator-neutral.

Power to idle and Let go works in most airplanes, but in the T-6 with an Aft CG it doesn't so I teach PARE.
I'll bet you remember the T-37 Bold Face...



Edit - whups, you may not - had a moment of LysDexia and saw, "B52Flyer" instead of "B25Flyer"

Anyway, it's a bit different but PARE would have recovered them, too.

Last edited by breister : 01-08-2010 at 01:49 PM.
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  #99  
Old 01-08-2010, 01:50 PM
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rv8ch rv8ch is online now
 
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Default judgement - great advice - ADM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
.... You could be the absolute best stick in the business and still end up a lawn dart if your judgement is out to lunch, however; if your judgement is keen and your skill is mediocre your chances of survival are much, much better. ...

Ken
Gents, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to share your experience and wisdom.

I found this interesting presentation on Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...zAJy0sdkMIyErw
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Last edited by rv8ch : 01-08-2010 at 01:56 PM.
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  #100  
Old 01-08-2010, 02:03 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
An accelerated stall, your snap roll, is not a typical base to final scenerio at all. Read the accident reports. Most witness report a wing wagging, slushing scenerio prior to stall, a low speed event, low g event...
My point was presented poorly, let me try again.

My snap roll was the result of exceeding the critical angle of attack while in sloppy, uncoordinated flight. This is exactly what causes a base to final stall/spin, so in that respect they are the same scenario. In my example, the airplane passed through the incipient stall warning phase so quickly that I was only able to recognize the event after the airplane was fully stalled and rotation had begun. However, because of the relationship I have with my airplane, I responded instantly and correctly without even thinking about it. Which even reinforces my point further - How can a "competent" pilot, one who truly knows the limits of his airplane, possibly allow a "wing wagging, slushing scenerio prior to stall" degrade into a fully developed spin?

My answer - a "competent" pilot most likely will not. If the airplane is giving enough warning for someone on the GROUND to recognize it, what does that say about the pilot?

Points to poor stick and rudder skills.
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