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  #41  
Old 01-16-2010, 07:39 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv4ator View Post
Hindsight being what is is, I wish I had ordered a true Lycoming from Vans. Maybe a few more dollars, but a lot less problems.
The thing is....I remember a time back in the 90's when the quality on Lycoming cylinders was so bad that they were essentially junk. Cooling fins were so full of metal flashing that no air could get through. Exhaust valves were breaking left and right due to overheating, and valve guides wore out in a few hundred hours. We were all pretty thankful when ECI (and Superior) came along with re-engineered components that addressed the specific problems people were having with the "Genuine Lyc" parts.

The point being - they all have their problems....and their pluses! At least that's how I see it....
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  #42  
Old 01-18-2010, 05:41 PM
rwtalbot rwtalbot is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rv4ator View Post
I think that it is really BS that ECi is trying to treat experimentals differently than certified engines. If we buy cylinders from ECi, don't we pay the same price and expect the same reliability? I was told the same thing right after the AD can out that for $485 ECi would replace all four Group B cylinders. But a couple of days later they told me that now they would only "rework" my old cylinders (in direct violation of the AD). Maybe a class action will be needed to force ECi to make our engines as "safe" as those so called certified airplanes.

Hindsight being what is is, I wish I had ordered a true Lycoming from Vans. Maybe a few more dollars, but a lot less problems.
I couldn't agree more. I have been issued with an RMA and a promise of new cylinders for a fee. Several days later ECI contacted me and seemed to indicate they wanted to re-work them now and I have to freight them back.

In Australia we must follow the ADs produced by the country of origin so what they are suggesting is not legal at this point. In the meantime I have an engine that may or not be safe.

The freight cost and downtime will be much greater this way.

Let's hope they decide to do the right thing.

Cheers
Richard
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  #43  
Old 01-18-2010, 06:11 PM
KirkGrovesRV8 KirkGrovesRV8 is offline
 
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Not to throw more flames on the fire but everyone should think about their group A cylinders, a super cub from my home field had a group A cylinder go last Friday
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  #44  
Old 01-18-2010, 07:00 PM
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rjcthree rjcthree is offline
 
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Default Define "go" for me . . .

Cracked head or? Rick 90432
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  #45  
Old 01-18-2010, 07:48 PM
gasman gasman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by KirkGrovesRV8 View Post
I wanted to back up what Gunter said, I have 4 group A cylinders and although you DO NOT have to send them in I am. ECI has been great to work with and they do seem to care about what I want.
And like Gunter said its a machining issue not a metal issue
It was a change in the way they machined the heads that did not work......
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  #46  
Old 01-18-2010, 08:36 PM
KirkGrovesRV8 KirkGrovesRV8 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcthree View Post
Cracked head or? Rick 90432
A crack 1/2" wide by about 3" long on the forward face of the cylinder
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  #47  
Old 01-19-2010, 08:19 AM
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We just finished the task of replacing all of our cylinders. It took us one week and about 35 hours total. We test ran it on the ramp yesterday evening. It fired right up and ran without any issues so far. Now I'm ready for good weather and a test flight and break-in.
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  #48  
Old 01-19-2010, 08:32 AM
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petehowell petehowell is offline
 
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Default Cost?

Hi Scott,

What was your approx out of pocket cost to take care of the cylinder AD issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scard View Post
We just finished the task of replacing all of our cylinders. It took us one week and about 35 hours total. We test ran it on the ramp yesterday evening. It fired right up and ran without any issues so far. Now I'm ready for good weather and a test flight and break-in.
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  #49  
Old 01-19-2010, 08:34 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkGrovesRV8 View Post
Ok here is what I know
… separating the cylinder head from the barrel taking measurements and by either plating or milling making sure everything is correct and reassemble the cylinder…
I’m curious how they are going to do this. Here is what I have been told about how Lycoming mates the head to the barrel. (Please correct me, if I’m wrong. I have not sent this done but have only been told by someone who has.) ECi might assemble their cylinders differently.

Quote:
...the steel barrel is mated to the cast aluminum head. This is accomplished by heating the head in an oven, chilling the barrel in a refrigerator, and then quickly screwing them together. As they return to equal temperatures, the head contracts and the barrel expands to create a tight interference fit. After the head and barrel have been mated, the cylinder base flange mounting holes are drilled.

The next step is to grind and hone the cylinder bore to its final fit and finish. The bore must be exactly the proper diameter and perfectly round, within less than a thousandth of an inch of new specifications.

The bore is not precisely cylindrical—it is tapered in the top two inches of piston ring travel, usually by .003" to .007". This choke is used to compensate for the fact that when the cylinder is at operating temperature, the top of the barrel is considerably hotter than its base, and therefore it expands more. If the cylinder were not adequately choked at room temperature, the piston-to-cylinder clearance at top-dead-center would become loose and sloppy as the cylinder heats up, and the rings would flex excessively.

...
(That quote is from: http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182902-1.html.)

Maybe this is how they are going to fix them: (From the same source as above.)
Quote:
Rebarrelling
One more cylinder reconditioning technique is simply to de-mate the head from the barrel, discard the old barrel, and screw a new steel barrel into the old head. For many years, ECI has been the predominant cylinder rebarreller. ECI's replacement barrels are made of through-hardened steel and are not nitrided.
Lately, ECI has started offering replacement steel barrels with silicon carbide particles impregnated into the surface. As always, they have a catchy name for this: CermiSteel(TM).
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Last edited by N941WR : 01-19-2010 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Added AVWeb link
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  #50  
Old 01-28-2010, 10:09 PM
jcbarker jcbarker is offline
 
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Default How it's going with my cylinders

Well, as luck would have it, I have 1 cylinder from group "A" and 3 from "B". I discussed it with Sue at Aero Sport. She had Tim Morland get in touch with me. Below is the thread. Kinda long. Short story is they're reconditioning all four cylinders at no charge to me except for shipping the cylinders to them. I'll be removing the cylinders this weekend and sending them in. I'll use the time to get my paper work in order for my inspection. Any tips on putting the cylinders back on would be appreciated.

Almost there,

John Barker
RV-8 N819WB
================================================== ======
John, they are on the way today.

Tim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Barker [mailto:john@trek-tech.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:01 AM
To: Tim Morland
Subject: RE: ECI cylinders

Good morning Tim,

Thanks for your offer to supply boxes. Please send the boxes to:

John Barker
800 Pinewood Lane
Oceanside, OR 97134

Cheers,

John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Morland [mailto:tmorland@eci.aero]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:09 PM
To: John Barker
Subject: RE: ECI cylinders

Answers to your questions:

1- Yes we want the pistons and rings with the cylinders.
2- If you have cylinder boxes use those or some other heavy duty, moving type box. If not I can send you boxes. Let me know if I need to do that and I?ll have some shipped to you.
3- I?m not sure. How does AeroSport handle their warranty when it has been sitting waiting for airframe installation for a couple years? Does their warranty start with first flight?
4- Unfortunately we have no stock to swap you out with so we will have to rework yours.
5- We heat the cylinder to separate the head and barrel so the paint will be discolored.
6- We are reworking experimental cylinders now and will do it on certified cylinders as soon as the FAA approves our rework as an alternate means of compliance to the AD. Communication with them has been poor on this AD and we had applied for it (AMOC) long ago but it was overlooked until the AD was released. As soon as the AMOC is approved we expect to be bombarded with certified cylinder for rework.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Tim Morland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Barker [mailto:john@trek-tech.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:53 AM
To: Tim Morland
Subject: RE: ECI cylinders

Hello Tim,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I appreciate knowing what the process is and your test results.

I do have a few questions:
1. Do you want the pistons?
2. Do I use my own packaging or do you send me appropriate shipping containers?
3. Will these "re-worked" cylinders have new warranty?
4. Is there any way to speed up the process? e.g. swap the cylinders for ones already done?
5. What about the custom paint?
6. Are you re-working instead of replacing all cylinders affected by this AD? Or are certified installations being treated differently.

As I mentioned in my e-mail, this engine is in my RV-8 that I just completed. I was awaiting final inspection when the AD was issued. Three weeks re-work time will postpone the inspection date by at least a month and a half. I'm sure you can appreciate my desire to speed up the process.

Best regards,

John
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Morland [mailto:tmorland@eci.aero]
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:45 AM
To: john@trek-tech.com
Subject: ECI cylinders

John,

I have received your warranty application assigned you customer number 8642 and the RMA number is 35857. Please write that RMA number on or near the address label of the shipping box when you send them in.

We have developed a stronger head/barrel joint and incorporated that joint into all our new cylinders produced in the last two years. During the development of that joint we ran the cylinders on a fatigue rig until they failed and the final result is that we can take a used Group B cylinder with reworked threads and a new Lycoming cylinder and run them to failure and the reworked cylinder lasts three times longer than the new Lycoming.

We will rework your cylinders at no charge and pay the return freight. Since your cylinders are such low time there won?t be any need to replace valves, piston, etc but we will certainly inspect them to be sure. Expect the process to take three weeks in our plant.

Keep your rocker arms, rocker cover, push rod tubes, piston pin and fuel/primer nozzles; we just want the cylinder. The shipping address is on the warranty application in the lower right corner.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Tim Morland

Western Territory Manager
Engine Components, Inc.
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