3 Ship Acro

[Louise Hose]

Andy,

Thank you for your clearly stated and thought out post. While I don't like anonymous postings in general, I understand that it is necessary for some people due to their line of work or threats in their personal lifes. What matters is the content of the post and yours was clearly stated and well-thoughtout. I expect that the majority of VAF forum readers are relatively low-time pilots who don't know the rules limiting low-level aerobatics or when one may land short of an extended threshold. I believe that information needs to be included when "extreme" videos of legal activities are posted. When activities are illegal, well, best to keep videos off the web, IMHO.

[Danny7]

Originally Posted by Louise Hose

Andy,

Thank you for your clearly stated and thought out post. While I don't like anonymous postings in general, I understand that it is necessary for some people due to their line of work or threats in their personal lifes. What matters is the content of the post and yours was clearly stated and well-thoughtout. I expect that the majority of VAF forum readers are relatively low-time pilots who don't know the rules limiting low-level aerobatics or when one may land short of an extended threshold. I believe that information needs to be included when "extreme" videos of legal activities are posted. When activities are illegal, well, best to keep videos off the web, IMHO.

After some of the posts in the recent safety thread, I was a little put off by what looked like attacks on the messenger by other than the OP. I thought of some different responses and hadn't settled on one i could post when you posted Louise. thanks for your time and input.

[n5lp]

Originally Posted by Andy

...3) LANDING. I could be mistaken here, but the sudden jerk in the video seemed to indicate that you intentionally landed well short of a displaced threshold. As I'm sure you know, you can takeoff from behind a displaced threshold but you can't land short of one. {In your defense, perhaps there was a NOTAM opening the entire surface for landing--I'll take this back if so.}...

Andy, I am just trying to learn here, since I have never found any FAR that prohibits part 91 operation on a surface that is not designated as runway. I would ask you for a reference.

I can find in the AIM the definition of a Displace Threshold:

2. Displaced Threshold. A displaced threshold is a threshold located at a point on the runway other than the designated beginning of the runway. Displacement of a threshold reduces the length of runway available for landings. The portion of runway behind a displaced threshold is available for takeoffs in either direction and landings from the opposite direction. A ten feet wide white threshold bar is located across the width of the runway at the displaced threshold. White arrows are located along the centerline in the area between the beginning of the runway and displaced threshold. White arrow heads are located across the width of the runway just prior to the threshold bar, as shown in FIG 2-3-4.

This is from Section 3. Airport Marking Aids and Signs

What I can not find is where it says one has to land on something designated as a suitable runway.

Personally I have landed in parking lots, farmers fields, rangeland, county roads, highways and neighborhood streets. At airports I have landed between runways, before runways, on taxiways and on ramps. In each case of landing on an airport off runway, it was because that was safer than landing on the runway. I have never found a prohibition against landing on airport and off runway although I have heard that controllers at controlled airports are not allowed to clear someone to land other than on a runway. That doesn't mean that people don't do it. They advise the tower and then they do it.

If I have been operating illegally all these years, I would like to find out about it. So would many other people, some of whom would be put out of business by such a prohibition.

[Andy]

I've logged in twice and each time I've attempted to post a somewhat long reply to the previous comments.

But each time I click "submit reply", I get a dialog box that says I'm not logged in and can't play with other kids.

Needless to say, my comments are lost and I have to begin again. Before I slog through that once more, does anyone have a suggestion about what I'm doing wrong? I'll try to get this short question through. Thanks,

AB

[Paul Thomas]

Originally Posted by Andy

I've logged in twice and each time I've attempted to post a somewhat long reply to the previous comments.

But each time I click "submit reply", I get a dialog box that says I'm not logged in and can't play with other kids.

Needless to say, my comments are lost and I have to begin again. Before I slog through that once more, does anyone have a suggestion about what I'm doing wrong? I'll try to get this short question through. Thanks,

AB

When you log in, select the remember me option.

[Louise Hose]

Also, I (and others) have learned to write long posts in Word so we don't lose them when this sort of thing happens (and it has happened to me. Write the response, log in, cut-and-paste, then post.

[Andy]

I'm new to this online forum thing so please excuse my gaffes. I'll see if I can settle this to everyone's satisfaction.

1) I didn't include any personal information because I'm a private person. But if my birthdate and shoe size have a bearing on the validity of my observations, here goes: I'm Andy Beasley, I served 20 years as an Air Force pilot, I have about 4500 hours, I had an RV-4 (which is why I joined VAF three years ago in order to post it for sale), I now have an RV-3B, a friend recently suggested I check out VAF as a good source of RV information, I live in Colorado, I'm a writer, I like animals. Good enough?

2) PCHunt: I wasn't leaving myself "an out" at every point. I thought I was making it clear that I was giving Widget the benefit of the doubt. And given the fact that we've never clapped eyes on one another, I'll overlook your gratuitous slur about what kind of pilot I am.

3) ronschreck: Okay, that's who I am. Are my comments valid?

4) Widget: I sincerely thank you for your mature, honest reply. Actually, I did consider that you had an acrobatic box. I searched the A/FD (the only place I know to look) for a box you might have been in and there wasn't one in your area. So, I did try to cut you that slack. Also, I don't want you to stop posting videos--please keep it up. It's just that whenever any of us get into an airplane, we should be striving to present the absolutely perfect example of how to perform whatever mission it is that we're engaged in. And I just felt your video didn't do that. That's what I meant about "amateur pilots"--I'm sure you fly like a pro but the video didn't do you justice. I hope you see my point. Finally, I'm sorry about your negative USAF experience. All my old USAF flying buddies that I hang around with are finger-on-the-chest, face-to-face critical kind of guys and I just assumed you were as well. I apologize if I sounded harsh.

5) N8RV: good comments.

6) Brantel: please see my comments to Widget re: the "amateur" remark.

7) Louise: Thank you! Your response is exactly what I was hoping for. That's why I didn't think my personal information was relevant; I just assumed that everyone would read my comments, watch the video and draw their own conclusions about the flight in question. I didn't expect that I would become the story. Your quality of reasoning is superb.

8) Danny7: Thank you! My feelings exactly.

9) n51p: Yes, the AIM is the reference for airport markings--thresholds, hold lines, etc.--and spells out the rules for airport operations. For displaced thresholds, I honor the AIM guidance just the same as I would hold lines and all the rest for non-emergency ops. About your other ideas on other landing sites, I'll leave that to someone with more civilian experience than I have. I hold strong opinions on that subject, but they're just opinions and I think you'll understand if I say that I've grown weary of arguing for now.

Thanks for your feedback. Believe me, I've learned a lot about what's acceptable and unacceptable here.

AB

[Andy]

Paul, thanks for the tip. And thanks, Louise, I'll remember that.

AB

[szicree]

So let me see if I have this right, Andy's comments are without merit because he doesn't feel like telling thousands of strangers his full name, location, and occupation? This is such B.S. I can hardly believe I'm reading it. Regarding the minimum altitude question, was it a violation or not? Could this be why the video is gone?

[Kahuna]

Been sitting on the sidelines entertaining myself with the comments.
Ill give you a few.
First these are professional, current, aerobatic SAC waiver card holders. Not that it matters.
1. Air show pilots as a rule 'zero altimeters' to display AGL numbers for flight. Not that it matters.
2. He should NEVER be checking anything but either his lead if he is a wingman, or his nose/instruments as lead. He is not allowed to look around. He is missioned as lead to focus on alt, speeds, box position etc. The moment I see him looking around and leaving his focus on his dedicated job, I kick out and key up. A formation lead in this type of maneuvering is moving back and forth over the same box area. No looking back allowed. No looking around allowed. Everything is very precise and coordinated. Everything going on is in front of him, with or without wingman, in all maneuvers. This is done by design and the routine is by design to allow for this. Not that it matters.
3. The briefing of floors and routine is extensive and normal course of business for these guys. Much work is done in this area. Not that it matters.
4. Landing on a threshold? Man thats a new one.

"amateur pilots"? Well thats too subjective for me to comment on. You all can back and to amongst each other and Ill watch some more. This is fun.
Best,

Originally Posted by Andy

I'm sorry that my first real post has to be critical. I just watched this video because I love aerobatics and I'm passionate about formation. Maybe I was a USAF Flight Examiner too long, but three things gave me a "I can't believe I'm watching this" sort of feeling.

1) ALTITUDE. Widget, was that lake Sidney Lanier you guys were flying over? If so, I believe the surface of the lake is 1070' MSL. I lost count of the number of times when your altimeter read 1500' to 1700'. Now, maybe someone changed Part 91 when I wasn't looking, but the min altitude for aerobatics is 1500' AGL. All three of you repeatedly led your flight below the FAR minimum altitude, which makes me think that there was no discussion of a "floor" in your preflight briefing. {Please tell me if you were really over a different lake--with a 0' MSL surface--and I'll gladly withdraw the criticism.}

2) VISUAL LOOKOUT/CLEARING. Maybe you edited out all your good clearing time to keep your viewers from getting dizzy. But the video gives the impression that you almost never checked anything but 12 when you were leading (and even during your free time as #3 in the Cuban 8).

3) LANDING. I could be mistaken here, but the sudden jerk in the video seemed to indicate that you intentionally landed well short of a displaced threshold. As I'm sure you know, you can takeoff from behind a displaced threshold but you can't land short of one. {In your defense, perhaps there was a NOTAM opening the entire surface for landing--I'll take this back if so.}

I'm not trying to embarrass anyone with these observations. But I'm concerned about two things: that younger pilots will take this as a demonstration of the proper way to fly, and that your needlessly low aerobatics will eventually spoil it for the rest of us.

Again, no offense. I'm sure that you and Kahuna and Subob strive for absoute perfection every time you strap into an airplane (otherwise, there's no point in flying). But the lack of discipline evidenced in the video cheapens your efforts and has "amateur pilots" written all over it. In many ways you guys had a great ride; it's a shame to get a Q3 because of things that are so easily avoided.

Respectfully,

Andy