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  #31  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:15 AM
breister breister is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Looks like Dynon (non Skyview) are more tuned to the VFR value buyer. Skyview is beautiful, but unproven and without many of its features that would allow it to be compared to the AFS and GRT.

Am I trying to simplify this too much?
Hi Mike,

Can't answer many of your other questions, but will say that the first generation Dynons are just fine for IFR, giving you far more than the traditional 6-pack. I fly with a Garmin GNS 480; Dynon D180 + HS34; and a TT II VSGV AP. This combination gives me EVERYTHING I need to fly solid IFR (and the flight director features of the 480 are superior to virtually any other system that drives an autopilot). As backups I have a hand-held radio; a 496; and my old vaccuum gages installed on the co-pilot side.

An EFIS is never your entire system (at least not yet today), and your entire system should be considered when you purchase an EFIS. Make a list of the features YOU want and prioritize them. Optimize those features across your entire panel, not just the EFIS. Set a budget and make some hard choices - and then consider expanding the budget only if you absolutely have to have some feature you simply cannot get using any combination of equipment available.

Happy shopping!
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  #32  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:18 AM
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N395V N395V is offline
 
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Location: Mendon South Carolina
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For those with Plane Jane EFIi that just must have synthetic vision and HITS the Flight Cheetah FL150 with that program is a great backup moving map.



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  #33  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:37 AM
SteinAir SteinAir is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,473
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I guess it's gonna be time for another EFIS article in Kitplanes!

Far too much for me to list here in regards to all the posts...some good, and some not so good. There are also many pages worth of info on these subjects in the archives somewhere, but it's pretty hard to sort the wheat from the chaff sometimes. I wish I had the time to put it all down here right now, but I don't so watch for a new article at some point this next year.


I'm sitting back enjoying some of the posts! As I said, some pretty good and spot on, some not so much....

Cheers,
Stein
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  #34  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:46 AM
lucky lucky is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Choosing an EFIS??

Oh, the endless debate over which EFIS. And with all the great systems out there, the manufactures aren’t making it easy on us homebuilders.

Just for background; I have read many of the posts here at VAF and other sites on EFIS’s. I have seen each system in action at Oshkosh and in planes, but I have only flown behind the GRT, and for only less than 5 hours.

Noting the date on the articles I am reading has become very important because things are changing very rapidly in the EFIS world. All Dynon comparisons have to be noted as pre and post Skyview. And I believe Dynon has now included GPS and pitot data in the attitude calculations which has made some posts (and opinions) invalid. (or am I wrong here?)

With all that out of the way, I have noted a few opinions as to how to choose an EFIS. (Paul had a good post on this.
(http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ht=Iron+flight)
Given that all the systems are reliable, and that the companies show no signs of disappearing, Some of the differences in the systems I have seen are (read as deciding factors):
  1. The mission - Buy the one that fits YOUR mission and be honest with yourself what that mission is. (Are you really IFR? I’m not now but plan to be by next year. Do you need an auto pilot?)
  2. IFR or VFR - GRT = IFR/VFR mission. Dynon, Advanced, and MGL = VFR missions. My understanding is that this is due to the way each system determines attitude and corrects for errors.
  3. Budget
I have asked many pilots, “What was the determining factor in why you chose the system you have?” What this has revealed is that many pilots go with their gut and that I don’t know much about EFIS’s. Both make it hard for me to choose.

I have heard the lite IFR/Hard IFR comments. But I am of the mindset that either you are in it or not. BUT, There were many pilots flying IFR way before EFIS’s ever came into being. So, I am still a little confused as to why GRT is IFR and why Dynon is not. (especially the Skyview)

Price is always a factor, and that is why I would never even consider a Garmin.

So, on to the questions I have;
  1. Why is a system considered to be IFR, or why not? Please compare the latest data. I am hoping Dynon Support can chime in here as well as others. Are we holding on to old opinions or over equipping our needs?
  2. Synthetic vision is a $1K or more option, is it worth it?
  3. Is there a way to pigon hole the systems (Dynon, GRT, Advanced, MGL) into a mission? - Stein? Paul? DFlyer? Rainier? Anybody?
Given I will drop $5K to $8K for an EFIS, this is no light decision.

It is very hard to overlook all the great features in each system but if pushed, what I personally don’t like about some systems are the membrane switches of the MGL (don’t mind the connectors but locking connectors would be better), the looks and integration of the EMS on the GRT, the proprietary and completely integrated auto pilot of Dynon, and I have to admit I just know much about the Advanced.

Some of the best things are the trade in program for GRT and the Dynon value.

BTW, My mission is long X-country 3-4 times a year, burger runs every weekend, and some lite acro whenever the wife is not in the right seat.

Enough rambling for me. Any thoughts or answers?
I went through this process and as an avionics engineer myself it was torturous fun. Almost went with Blue Mountain based on impulsive Eye Candy. Then did real analysis when I realized this was going to add up to $eriou$ $$$ and came away most impressed with GRT from every possible angle. Never had buyers regret. I am an avionics engineer by trade and they have my respect. AHRS is fundamentally sound and philosophically as rock solid as you are going to get right now at this price point which is what won me over. I couldn't use the eye candy technique since I didn't know anyone around here that had GRT back then (pre Sport days). Now they are everywhere around me, kind of like RVs in general, so there's no shortage of folks to compare notes with or go visit if someone has new bells and whistles to look at from GRT. All software of any type has always been free from them as well and pretty well tested for obvious bugs in typical use scenarios. When they are found they don't hide or pretend they've never heard about them. You get great support and you never get the feeling there's any internal company turnover, strife, or that they are struggling to make ends meet. The steady product improvement pace and upgradeable trade in allowance have been outstanding, amazing, and the first I can remember in this market niche.

I've long stopped doing these 'side by side' comparisons as my original gut instinct has proven to be true. GRT continues to keep their products up to date, relevant and competitive so if it comes time to sell, GRT will be a very positive selling point. Whatever anyone else is doing now, GRT probably already did it. If someone comes out with something Amazing today, GRT is probably also already working on it and it will be out 'tomorrow'. It's a privilege doing business with them. I think it takes a lot of guts to start a business like they have and they have my professional respect, sincerely.
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Last edited by lucky : 12-21-2009 at 08:55 AM.
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  #35  
Old 12-21-2009, 09:28 AM
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ClayR_9A ClayR_9A is offline
 
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Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 171
Default consider the cost

Before you buy ANY EFIS, think about whether you can afford to replace it in 5-8 years. If not, rethink your plans.

The pace of innovation is fast right now, and the long-term reliability of ALL are still unproven. Even if your EFIS is still working in 8 years, are you still going to want to fly behind it or will there be something else you're lusting after? (it will be worth nothing at that point too)

Consider separating the flight, engine, and navigation components so you don't end up replacing the entire thing at once. Think about the day you WILL need to replace it when you're installing it. Good planning now will save a LOT of time/trouble later.

NEVER buy an efis until you can clearly see the light at the end of your build process. You don't want it to grow old in your garage. Use a replacable blank in your panel to mount the EFIS so it doesn't require major surgery to replace later. (and you can also delay your decision to purchase until the last possible moment) Use an empty shell from the manufacturer for the install, and only BUY when you can't wait any longer.

On my 2nd EFIS in 4.5 years.... Been there, done that.

-Clay
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  #36  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:08 AM
Tom Hunter Tom Hunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Paso Robles, CA
Posts: 32
Default Choosing an EFIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff beckley View Post
If you plan to add the SL30 then you will not find a better IFR platform than TruTrak. TruTrak has been doing it for a long time and some of the other EFIS guys are using Trutrack's stuff. I would not consider Dynon right now as it is only just a fancy moving map. Will not help you get to where you want to go and has no autopilot software working. It will be a long time before it is mature enough to be considered as a IFR device if ever. Besides I would never again buy into the idea of buying a piece of hardware until it is fully functional. Remember Blue Mountain? GRT, AFS, and MGL are contenders.
Quote:
MGL is hard at work and is a newcomer but I find it to be the most complicated device on the planet. Even the sales reps at Oshkosh could not show how it works. Not something you want to use in a pinch if you find yourself in IMC unexpected. Way over engineered
.
Now down to GRT and AFS. Both have internal GPS with data base. Both play very well with separate autopilots and have the ability to communicate with the SL30 and 430 in the future.
My suggestion is decide on how complex of an EFIS you want and play with both of them at Sun and Fun. Just make sure that the units you are playing with are current shipping products. Vaporware will aggravate you to no end waiting for the updates to come out and worrying that it may never be complete before the manufacturer decides to release another better EFIS and leaves you out in the cold.

Keep one thing in mind. It is easy to be enamored by the glitzy wizbang features of the current crop of EFIS's. Lots of fun to play with at first but after time you will end up using a fraction of stuff especially if it is hard to operate. In IMC the simpler the better and it better work just as you expect.
It becomes your copilot and you have to trust it with your life. Pick the one you will trust.

I couldn't agree more with your advice to choose wisely the features you need. However, I must disagree with your comments about MGL. I too spent time with them at Oshkosh, as well as the others, Dynon, GRT, etc. and found them to be very informed about their product. One thing I found refreshing was they did not run down their competition. I did not find that to be true with the others. Before flying IFR with any device, one needs to be educated on the use of it. If you read the NTSB accident reports you will find that a number of very costly aircraft with full glass panels have crashed due to pilot error in managing (and understanding) the glass panel. One accident I remember happened to a Cirrus near San Jose under Oakland center and the guy flew it into a hill side in the dark. I think a fairer statement of MGL would be that the EFIS's have a lot of features that are tailorable to your needs and requires your active involvement to set up the various screens and pages on your display.

Lastly, for those who like to attack a problem from the highest possible level, MGL is using their own OS and designing their own boards, so the firm ware requires the minimum in current so heating is never an issue. Nor are they living in a Linux world as is one of the other EFIS manufacturers. Also they have built and certified in the US a comm radio. Hum, if they can do the same with Nav and package it with an EFIS.....!!

Tom
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  #37  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:45 AM
Tom Hunter Tom Hunter is offline
 
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Location: Paso Robles, CA
Posts: 32
Default Choosing an EFIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVnoob View Post
are you implying there is something wrong with Linux?
or are you stating there is something wrong with Linux?

or are you inferring "own OS" is superior to others'?
I am pointing out a major difference. I am NOT saying that Linux has any problems.

Not am I saying that writing an OS is a good idea. BUT if you can do what MGL has been able to do, there is a big advantages as the EFIS system becomes more complex "IF" your code and hardware are matched to each other for the task at hand.

Tom
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  #38  
Old 12-21-2009, 11:24 AM
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Mike D Mike D is offline
 
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Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 456
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Thanks everyone for all the good information. Stein, I am looking forward to a new article from you.

Seems like my trying to assign a mission to each brand is a futile attempt. I guess this is a complement to the marketing and development teams at each manufacturer.

This is sort of like the time I wanted to fix a leaky faucet and it ended up with me tearing out the wall to replace some bad piping.

To explain, I started this whole endive because I have the standard Vans gauges taking up the whole right side of the panel. The issue here is that they are hard to see and even harder to notice when something is going wrong. (Yes, I need to learn scan my panel better.) But as a product designer, I find most problems like this not to be the fault of the user, but rather the fault of the system. So I want to fix my system.

So, I start off looking for an EMS. But this leads the EFIS question which leads to the AP question, which leads to the huge puzzle we have now.

The real issue is that the EFIS market is moving so quickly, that by the time I pick something that sets me on a path, the path becomes invalid after a year. Frustration. Why, oh why, cant I be a millionaire?

Without really getting into my profession, there is a common problem with the ?paradox of choice? with markets like this. Too much choice leads to buyer?s remorse and/or very strong opinions to justify ones purchase. Here is not the place to explain the concept, but in the end what happens is the consumer ends up making no choice or being very unhappy with their choice. This always ends up being very bad for the manufactures as R&D/marketing costs go up and profit goes down. Just a warning to the manufactures out there to pick a stance and stick with it. You can?t be everything to everyone. But you know this.

So, with the encouragement of you all, I set out to find some answers to a few questions I had.
  1. Are the available EFIS capable of IFR/IMC?
    • a. Yes, TT, Dynon, AFS, GRT, MGL are all capable given the correct setup. Dynon, AFS, and GRT all have GPS as well as pitot data to error correct the attitude. Could not positively identify if MGL or TT do this also, but my guess would be yes.
    • b. All will give you warning if something is gone wrong, (like no GPS data)
    • c. All are more capable, take up less space, and cost less than their steam gauge equivalents.
    • d. All should have some sort of back up.
  2. Integration of nav/comm.
    • a. GRT, Dynon (skyview), and AFS have some sort of integration. Some require an additional module (ARINC 429 Converter), but they can do it with the appropriate nav/comm.
  3. Integration of AP
    • a. GRT can use TT, Trio, and Nav-aid
    • b. Dynon can use dynon only
    • c. AFS has their own version of TT being developed but can use TT now.
Please, Please correct me if I am wrong.

So in the end, all are within +/- $1.5K of each other, and all are capable if IFR.

Right now, I am leaning toward GRT sport for several reasons (my reasons)
  1. I can start with the EMS and solve my immediate issue, then add on as money allows.
  2. GRT has their system features working now.
  3. GRT has a great trade up program.
  4. I personally don?t like having the AP, and EFIS in one system. I want to use the AP as a back up to the EFIS.
  5. I don?t need synthetic vision as I am not an X-wing fighter going in to kill the death star.
  6. HITS is a nice to have, and it is on the GRT Sport.
  7. I don?t have, nor will have a GNS530. But If I do I can upgrade to the HX.
If Skyview gets some more functions working (moving map, EMS) and allows for the integrated use of a TT AP, I might sway back to Skyview and just prove it out in VFR conditions. So, this is not over yet.
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  #39  
Old 12-21-2009, 12:22 PM
C-GRVT C-GRVT is offline
 
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Mike,
I think that you may not be comparing apples to apples on autopilot function so the conclusion that cost is within $1500 may not be right. For example, I think the Dynon Efis will drive its own proprietary servos, so the cost of a two axis Dynon autopilot solution is the cost of the servos. GRT offers "autopilot integration" , but I don't think that means that all you need to add are two servos. The cost of a separate two servo autopilot seems to be in the $4000 range.

I agree with you that the decision is a difficult one. In another thread, Rainier Lamers offered that his (MGL) system and others were aimed at different markets:
"Our respective products are very different in concept and so they don't directly compete with each other."
Subsequent postings didn't really flesh out what that meant, and no vendor piped up on the forum to identify what they considered their target market to be, or why. I think many prospective purchasers are facing the same "paradox of choice".
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A finishing kit
(EFIS/autopilot not yet bought)
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  #40  
Old 12-21-2009, 12:38 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-GRVT View Post
The cost of a separate two servo autopilot seems to be in the $4000 range.
Try $5200 for one that fully integrates with GRT or AFS... $4950 from AFS..
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