Letter of Denial by DAR - yikes!

[Rick RV-4]

A good lesson learned here for others to follow . . . beware Amigo!

I started working with a DAR a few months ago to set up a date to have my "super slow-build" RV-4 inspected. Since I'm getting close, he asked me to submit my paperwork to him so he could "look it (the paperwork) over" and "point me in the right direction" - in his words, it would help speed up the process so we wouldn't have to deal with errors the day of the inspection. Seemed like a good idea at the time. I sent him a copy of my registration, an incomplete Form 8130-6 and a complete 8130-12.

As we got further into the process, it seemed to me as if he was being unreasonable on a few items (such as AD compliance with my Experimental Lycoming engine). He was very quick to say "if we have to do an engine tear down" to prove ADs, I'd have to do that and this was even before we addressed any particular AD.

I also asked about my ELT installation and he said I'd have to do a stress pull test to prove compliance with the regs (and I installed the ELT in the baggage compartment attached to the longerons - a very common place for an RV). Again, I though this seemed a little extreem.

When I talked with other APs, IAs and RV builders, they all agreed his demands were unreasonable - to the point they recommended I use another DAR.

Long story short, the further I talked with him, the less I liked what I was hearing. I very politely told him I wanted to end my inspection process with him and proceed with another DAR in the area and I offered to compensate him a reasonable amount for his time spent. He never looked at my airplane, my builder's log or anything else other than the forms I discussed.

As soon as I mentioned that I was going to stop working with him he quickly told me he would HAVE to submit a "letter of denial" to the FAA. Needless to say, I was shocked because I felt as if I was being extorted or strong-armed into finishing the process with him.

After doing some research on this subject, it does sound as if he's correct - if you have appplied for a certificate and don't follow through, he can write the "letter of denial" as you can't simply pull an application you've applied for. Personnally, I don't feel like I formally applied by sending him copies of my three forms listed (especially with one of them being incomplete) but that is his opinion.

So, word to the wise - you may want to think twice about sending your paperwork early to your DAR unless you really know him or her well.

Hope this doesn't happen to you . . . .

Rick
Just added another 90% to the other 90%!

[Ironflight]

You don't list any location information in your profile Rick, so we don't know what FSDO you might be dealing with - but if you feel like you're being extorted, a call to the local FSDO that has this guy in their district might be appropriate.

We have a number of DAR's here that can probably steer you a lot better through the process.

Paul

[Radomir]

I'd agree with you.. you did not aply for certificate unless ALL your paperwork is in order...

[Sam Buchanan]

Very sorry to hear you are having an unpleasant DAR experience. Most DAR's we deal with are very reasonable and knowledgeable, sounds like you found one with limited (no?) experience with issuing experimental airworthiness certificates.

For builders reading this sad tale.........please check the list of DAR's on Doug's front page. If none of those gentlemen are available in your area, by all means check with the local EAA chapter or other builders in order to receive a good DAR recommendation.

Hopefully a call to your FSDO will go a long ways toward getting this saga straightened out.

Best wishes!

[SteinAir]

As others have said - Call the FSDO and/or call the MIDO asap! I wouldn't have any additional communication with him until I talked to the FAA folks. He's wrong about AD's, which means he's probably wrong about other things as well.

Yet another reason to do your due diligence before selecting a DAR. It's worth paying more to get a better DAR - this is one of those cases where it's not always going to be the cheapest or most local guy who is the best choice.

Get on the phone with the FAA and get them involved in the conversation.

Cheers,
Stein

[Flying Scotsman]

From the FAA, the new AC on EABs:

b. How to Submit Your Application. Submit an application under ? 47.33, Aircraft not previously registered anywhere, to the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch, AFS-750 (see Appendix 7 to this AC for the address). Include the following in the package:
(1) Documentation that you own the aircraft. You may use AC Form 8050-88, Affidavit of Ownership for Amateur-Built Aircraft (see Appendix 9 to this AC), or its equivalent. The affidavit needs to state that you built the aircraft from parts or a kit and that the person signing the affidavit is the owner.
(2) A signed bill of sale from the manufacturer of the kit, if the aircraft was built from a kit. You may use AC Form 8050-2, Aircraft Bill of Sale, but strike out the word ?aircraft? and insert the word ?kit? (see Appendix 10 to this AC). If you cannot provide a bill of sale for the kit, explain why. If you are not the original purchaser of an uncompleted kit, provide AFS-750 traceability from the kit manufacturer through the previous builder(s) to yourself.
(3) A completed AC Form 8050-1 (see Appendix 5 to this AC). Keep the pink copy for your records until you get your Certificate of Aircraft Registration (AC Form 8050-3). The pink copy and FAA Form 8130-6 are not authorization to operate your aircraft.
(4) A check or money order payable to the FAA for the registration fee. The registration fee is $5. If you are requesting a special registration number, it is an extra $10. Therefore, if you submit your registration and request for a special registration number at the same time, the total fee is $15.
(5) A special request letter as described in paragraph 9c, if you want a specific registration number.

Incomplete forms, given to someone for "review", should not be considered a formal application.

Call FSDO *today*. Time will not be your friend, as the denial he wants to file works its way into the system.

[Rick RV-4]

Thanks for all of the replies. I too feel as if I have not formally "applied" with him - but I know it will be his word against mine. I feel even more frustrated that this was presented to me for sole reason of speeding up the paperwork process. I even told him I wasn't done with some of the paperwork he requested but he asked for it anyway. As my wife said, he's probably been down this path before!

I already tried to call the FSDO (per the EAA's advice) but they must be closed today (federal holiday). That is FIRST on my "to do" list tomorrow, though.

Uggghhh . . . this is not the way I was hoping to close out this 16 year project!

Rick

[flion]

It won't be entirely your word against his. He has no complete paperwork to back up any claim that you made an application. And, for others, you should not be afraid to allow a DAR to preview your paperwork. I did not sign my application until we agreed on the final version, at the time of the inspection. Nor did I sign my program letter. My DAR sent my preview paperwork back to me with corrections to be made and, on the day of the inspection, I brought the corrected packet and he brought the Airworthiness Certificate and Limitations. He proceeded to inspect and then I signed my paperwork and finally he went through the limitations with me before signing and turning it over to me. I didn't sign before not because I didn't trust my DAR but because we both wanted the paperwork exactly correct before submitting it to the FAA. But the practical side of that is that he didn't have a signed copy of any application until the day of the inspection; hence no application to deny if it had come to that. I think this DAR is going to fall flat on his ... er, face if he tries to give you any trouble, especially if you contact the FSDO as soon as you can. Your new (and hopefully more trustworthy) DAR may also be able to help.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by Flying Scotsman

From the FAA, the new AC on EABs:



Incomplete forms, given to someone for "review", should not be considered a formal application.

Call FSDO *today*. Time will not be your friend, as the denial he wants to file works its way into the system.

I agree with the previous advice...call the FSDO.

Another point to consider (and maybe Mel can chime in with confirmation)
About all he could issue you a denial for at this point is incomplete paperwork.
Also, a denial does not mean you can not get an airworthiness certificate, it just means you need to correct the reason the original denial was issued. When any inspector is going through the inspection process he is supposed to check and see if a denial has be previously issued against a specific aircraft for any reason. If you can correct the issue (incomplete paperwork) to the inspectors satisfaction, they should have no difficulty issuing a C of A.

[Ron Lee]

Hi DAR, this is the RV guy you want to issue a denial letter to because I don't want to use your services.

I think that there is a misunderstanding that would lead you to issue that letter to the FAA. I have not yet applied for a registration.

Now unless we come to agreement that my view is correct and you fax me a signed letter stating that, I will have to protect my interests by calling the FSDO first thing Tuesday morning.

Would you like a few minutes to think about it?


Note: This provides both parties the chance to not cause any problems.