RE: Hot Start ECi IOX-360 FI

[fstringham7a]

Searched the threads and even wrote a tread on this problem in another thread but with new info I wanted to get the groups thoughts on this interesting problem.

With nearly 23 hours on the hobbs BUZZ (N74BZ) is flying/performing great

There still is one SMALL problem. HOT STARTS.

As per ECi instruction a cold starts and a hot starts should be the same.

1. Mixture full rich
2. Props full in
3. Throttle one inch in
4. fuel pump on for 1 to 5 counts (seconds) time depends on altitude/temp/hot or cold start
5. begin the start...usually on the first to thrid blade
6. when engine is running pull throttle to idle.

On cold starts the engine fires immediate and solid and smooth

On a hot start it will just crank and crank and crank......

A number of different methods have been tried but the one that works the best but...............

1. Mixture full rich
2. Props full in
3. Throttle one inch in
4. begin the start
5. Turn on the fuel pump
6. Slowly add more throttle.
7. As engine starts at some point (at a high RPM position)...time has never been the same.
8. Turn off fuel pump
9. Slowly pull the throttle to idle. If it it pulled to idle to quickly the engine will die......The engine must run at about 1200 to 1600 rpm for a period of time until it smooths out an runs at idle. I believe it take a while to push the hot fuel through the system.

NOTE: I don't necessarily like the engine running at that high an idle at start up but I also see no harm as the engine is warm/lubed/ready for action. I have a very expensive primer in the Air Flow fuel pump, no purge system, lines back to the tank from the engine driven ECi pump. I have tried many different combinations of Mixture/Throttle combinations to get the job done with this one being the one that works. In my next plane.....did my wife hear that.....I would either use the Frank 1 method of dual electric fuel pumps or the ECi suggested dual low pressure/high pressure fuel pumps(not sure of a company that makes them or where to buy). High pressure to prime and low pressure for take off/landing and hot starts..........

So there it is. Any comments, ideas, or other that don't require a rebuild of the fuel system would be appreciated or..........is this what it is. Bobby Looper the fellow that ran my engine in told me each engine has a personality and style....find it....maybe I have found it in this engine/pump combination!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1 @ 23 hours and can't wait to get out of jail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SteinAir]

Get some popcorn ready...this is sort of like primers!

But, I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that I'd not hot start any injected Lyco with the mixture at full rich (unless it'd been sitting a good long while).

There are several things that are a bit curious to me in your methods. Anytime the mixture is in full rich and the boost pump is on, you're basically sending fuel to the cylinders....which is not what you want in a hot injected engine that "self flooded" itself when you shut it off.

The advice you've been given about the engines having a personality is correct, but most injected lycos are the same when it comes to hot starts in the fact that you're basically starting out with a flooded engine. Electronic ignition will help this out greatl (and I don't know if you have it or not).

You'll hear a million different opinions and instructions, but conventional wisdom is to treat it like a flooded engine. Mixture out, Throttle open. Crank the engine, push the mixture in as it catches and pull the throttle out. No reason to have a 1600 RPM engine start - even it if's hot. I cringe when I see that happen!

Also, don't go trying to fix somethin that ain't broke! The fuel system is fine as designed. Sure there are opinions on that as well, but the fact is it works. Start adding complexity and you reduce reliability.

I can't give you spot on advice without sitting in your airplane and trying to start it hot....but I'm guessing it should behave like most others....

Cheers,
Stein

[DEWATSON]

I've found the best way to start a hot injected Lycoming is like this:

1. Prop full forward
2. Mixture full lean
3. Throttle forward no more than 1/4 inch (just cracked)
4. Start cranking
5. When the engine fires (about 10 blades) Slowly ease the mixture to full
rich.
Never turn on the fuel pump prior to cranking a hot injected engine. Leave the mixture full lean with the throttle cracked and crank until it fires and then ease the mixture forward. It works every time for mine no matter what density altitude or temperature. This method gives you many more starts from a healthy starter too. Works for me.

David watson

[dbuds2]

Will have the same ECi FI setup with a normal vertical sump. Do you have the cold air induction?

Have you talked to Bobby Looper at ECI? He has lots of useful experience and is always very eager to help me or make recommendations.

I don't have any personal experiece to support this idea, but, it would seem running the pump with mixture full lean and throttle closed is a good idea to purge warm fuel before start. Then start with cracked throttle and partially leaned mxture.

[John Clark]

I was just about to type the same thing, but David beat me to it. This is a sure thing system. The engine will crank slightly longer than a cold start, but it will start and not flood.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Originally Posted by DEWATSON

I've found the best way to start a hot injected Lycoming is like this:

1. Prop full forward
2. Mixture full lean
3. Throttle forward no more than 1/4 inch (just cracked)
4. Start cranking
5. When the engine fires (about 10 blades) Slowly ease the mixture to full
rich.
Never turn on the fuel pump prior to cranking a hot injected engine. Leave the mixture full lean with the throttle cracked and crank until it fires and then ease the mixture forward. It works every time for mine no matter what density altitude or temperature. This method gives you many more starts from a healthy starter too. Works for me.

David watson

[Larco]

I do it just like David does and it works great. A couple of freinds do as well and are happy with the results. Good Luck. Larry

[SteinAir]

One thing I missed....do you have the Bendix/AFP fuel injection or the ECI/Continental type injection? Not super critical, but they are indeed quite different....and I didn't notice exactly which you have. You can put either on an ECI engine.

Cheers,
Stein

[Fred.Stucklen]

I agree with the quote below, but determine that it's a hot start if there is still fuel pressure when I am restarting.

Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV
IO-360

Originally Posted by dbuds2

Will have the same ECi FI setup with a normal vertical sump. Do you have the cold air induction?

Have you talked to Bobby Looper at ECI? He has lots of useful experience and is always very eager to help me or make recommendations.

I don't have any personal experiece to support this idea, but, it would seem running the pump with mixture full lean and throttle closed is a good idea to purge warm fuel before start. Then start with cracked throttle and partially leaned mxture.

Originally Posted by DEWATSON

I've found the best way to start a hot injected Lycoming is like this:

1. Prop full forward
2. Mixture full lean
3. Throttle forward no more than 1/4 inch (just cracked)
4. Start cranking
5. When the engine fires (about 10 blades) Slowly ease the mixture to full
rich.
Never turn on the fuel pump prior to cranking a hot injected engine. Leave the mixture full lean with the throttle cracked and crank until it fires and then ease the mixture forward. It works every time for mine no matter what density altitude or temperature. This method gives you many more starts from a healthy starter too. Works for me.

David watson

[fstringham7a]

Thanks for the info.

On page 9 of the ECi Operating Instruction Manual it says:

http://www.eci.aero/exp/FIS_operatingmanual.pdf

4.2 Starting the Engine
This procedure is recommended for both cold
and hot starts:
Make sure that the propeller is clear and that
no personnel are in the immediate vicinity.
1) Open the throttle approximately 1 inch, and
move the mixture control to the full-rich
position.
2) Turn on the airframe boost pump on high
pressure for one to five (1-5) seconds and
turn it back off.
3) Immediately start cranking the engine over
until it starts.
4) As the engine starts to accelerate in RPM,
smoothly move the throttle towards the idle
position to prevent the engine from running
into a high RPM condition

More info: The engine is equiped with the ECi Cold ram air induction, dual PMags, ECi fuel injections. The first time away from home landing at KNB (Kanab, Utah) ECi recommended cold start/hot start method was used with out the engine starting. I then tried the more typical/standard start similar to what Dave suggests. Which didn't work readily (maybe I just didn't let it turn enough). Then the fuel pum was employed which got it started. By the way the pump is started after the prop starts turning.

Stein, my FI system is an AE Mechanical FI ECi system. By the way all that electrical stuff that you sent my way while lowering the fatness of my wallet has worked wonderfully......SO THANKS.... I also want you to know I was introducted to VAF and other sites during the high point of the world primer wars......gotta love opinions and those that stay at Hoilday Inns.

Dave, I have tried your suggested ....probably best...way to start a hot FI engine. It did turn more than ten blades, but I must admit I maybe wasn't patient enough to allow all that hot fuel to flow through. I will go back and give this another try on the next flight.

Bud, Bobby is just a great guy with alot of great info. I have discussed this with him and have told him of the novel way I start a hot engine. He wasn't overly conserned.

I do hope I can get the engine to behave using Dave's (more standard) hot start method. We will see!!!!

Finally the engine is still not broken in.....

Anyother ideas out there that may help send it this way.

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1

[USCANAM]

When your engine is cold, you know it's cold. When you've been flying, then go to start your engine about 20 to 30 minutes later on a hot day, you know the engine is hot. But what do you do when you're not sure if the engine is hot or cold, i.e., it's only about 60' F. out, and the engine has been shut down for about an hour. Do I prime, or do I not prime.
When faced with this situation, and it happens a lot here in the colder North East, on the first start, treat it like a hot engine, and try to start with a cracked throttle, and mixture idle cut-off. If nothing happens, such a cylinder firing, I'll stop cranking, and with the throttle still cracked, push the mixture to full rich, then quickly back to idle. This will slightly prime the cylinders because there's pressure in the fuel system. Engine should start then, then quickly richen the mixture. If engine does not give any indication of firing or starting, then I give a slight prime with pump as per a cold start.
With my Precision servo, no fuel goes to the fuel spider if the throttle is closed, and the mixture is in idle cut off. When priming for a cold start, I close throttle, mixture rich, pump on long enough to see fuel pressure, then shut pump off. Open throttle full, then back to about 1/4" open.
Starts within one revolution everytime.
Jack