Flying below stall speed

[rv72004]

The title is a bit misleading. Should read maintaining control whist stalled.

I learned something new the other day about controllability in a full stall. A veteran pilot showed me how to keep the stick full back [all the time] whilst in a upright stall and maintain wings level with rudder. We were descending at 2500ft/min with a indicated 70knots. Stick centered , full back , and plane was shuddering and bucking at the stalled condition. A very precise touch on the rudder pedals kept the wings level. [with him at the controls]

When I tried it, I would get into a over-control situation with rudder and then the plane would eventually flick in response to my inputs.
I never got it really right like he did , but got better.
What I realised is that I'm not a quick foot on the rudders as I thought I was.

The point is that rudder control in not given the practise it deserves. Just my humble opinion, but a quick reflex on the rudder could be a life saving asset.
Now let me go practise............

[Mel]

First off; if you were still "nose high", you were not stalled. When the wings stall, the nose will drop immediately. (well below 70kts in an RV-7)
Secondly, you are correct that at this point the wings should be kept level with the rudder only. In an aerobatic airplane any interaction with the ailerons at this point can cause the airplane to fall off on one wing and enter a spin.

[Ron Lee]

This sounds interesting and likely something that I could not do without good instruction and practice.

What is the practical use of this skill?

[Rick6a]

Originally Posted by rv72004

.......controllability in a full stall.....keep the stick full back [all the time] whilst in a upright stall and maintain wings level with rudder. We were descending at 2500ft/min with a indicated 70knots. Stick centered , full back , and plane was shuddering and bucking at the stalled condition. A very precise touch on the rudder pedals kept the wings level......

I believe this is sometimes referred to (at least in my local area) as the "falling leaf" maneuver. I often practiced it in my old C-150. Requiring a deft touch on the rudder pedals, it was easy once I got the hang of it. I should give it a try it in my -6A. I suspect the RV will be somewhat less forgiving of clumsy footwork though.

[Christopher Murphy]

If the airplane is stalled (don't think you actually stalled) the nose should drop through and it should recover and stall again if the stick is held full aft. It should continue the pitch ocilations until you hit the ground. Do you know how to recover from a spin? If you fail to keep the ball centered during these pitch ocilations you will enter a spin. It is good to undertand how your airplane flies in all corners of the envelope and even more important to know how to recover if it departs from controlled flight.

Chris M.

[Dan Babenco]

Originally Posted by Christopher Murphy

If the airplane is stalled (don't think you actually stalled) the nose should drop through and it should recover and stall again if the stick is held full aft. It should continue the pitch ocilations until you hit the ground. Do you know how to recover from a spin? If you fail to keep the ball centered during these pitch ocilations you will enter a spin. It is good to undertand how your airplane flies in all corners of the envelope and even more important to know how to recover if it departs from controlled flight.

Chris M.

I thought an elevator stall produced the nose-down condition in a tail plane. Why would the nose drop from a stalled condition in the main wings? I would think that a wing buffet and a descent of 2500 fpm goes along with a stalled condition, but they maintained enough forward speed to keep the nose up with a non-stalled elevator. Remember wing stall is related to angle of attack, not forward airspeed.

[frankh]

If you do any aerobatic training one of the first things the instructor will want you to do is to "wake up your feet".

Precisely as others have said, the rudder becomes much more important in aerobatics.

Aerobatics gone wrong (also known as FUN above a certain altitude) almost always results in a spin.

Now you see where the waking of the feet is a critical skill. The RV has very good rudder authority and keeping the wings leel is actually pretty easy. It will also recover from fully developed spins..as shown here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQIZQ2yti1Y

Health warning DO NOT SELF TEACH AEROBATICS!!!!

Frank
7a

[zilik]

Originally Posted by Rick6a

I believe this is sometimes referred to (at least in my local area) as the "falling leaf" maneuver. I often practiced it in my old C-150. Requiring a deft touch on the rudder pedals, it was easy once I got the hang of it. I should give it a try it in my -6A. I suspect the RV will be somewhat less forgiving of clumsy footwork though.

A couple of biannuals ago my instructor showed me the "Falling Leaf". The plane (6A) stalls, then recovers and stalls immediately and repeats this over and over again. The plane shutters, shakes and groans but I found it easy to keep the wings level with small rudder inputs. It seems a little harsher with full flaps, maybe because the airframe groans more. My wife does not like the maneuver at all!

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Dan Babenco

I thought an elevator stall produced the nose-down condition in a tail plane. Why would the nose drop from a stalled condition in the main wings? I would think that a wing buffet and a descent of 2500 fpm goes along with a stalled condition, but they maintained enough forward speed to keep the nose up with a non-stalled elevator. Remember wing stall is related to angle of attack, not forward airspeed.

The nose drops in a stalled condition because the wings are no longer providing lift, i.e. stalled.
Yes, wing stall is a factor of AOA. However in a wings level, 1G stall, "stall speed" is pretty consistent.

[Rick6a]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

........what is the practical use of this skill?

Some flight instructors use the maneuver (I had one) to encourage students to use their feet in a timely, coordinated manner and the falling leaf also serves to graphically demonstrate that when the ailerons become useless just how much authority the rudder can have.

Make no mistake...you enter the falling leaf like any other power off stall.....but you KEEP the stick in your belly at all times. From reading a few of the responses here, I get a sense that the "falling leaf" is not widely known. Prudence dictates it is unwise to practice without plenty of altitude and some prior instruction in spin recovery.