Tailwheel Excitement

[tinman]

I had a close call (at least to me it seemed so...)

RV-8
90 degree crosswind with full windsock?let?s say 15 kts.

I had a good cross-control going with nice alignment on centerline. I got a little slow over the numbers(70 kts indicated) and decided to try for a 3-pointer instead of the wheel landing. As soon as my tailwheel hit, it went into free-swivel mode?I was going slow enough that the rudder alone didn?t have enough bite to counter the crosswind-induced weathervaning to the right. The tail was already too far around for me to consider differential braking?it would have tied the knot in the ensuing ground loop?

The only thing left to try was to let her depart the runway and slow down in the weeds, or to gun it and try to get her off before I hit the edge of the runway. I gunned it.

I did a tiny crow-hop in ground effect and settled her back down on the mains?all was well. Gotta love that throttle!!!

I guess it makes sense that the tailwheel would have gone into free swivel mode since I had so much rudder dialed in when I touched down. The tailwheel would have been in a ?turn? when it hit going straight?this probably exceeded the breakout force limit and set her free?I have my chains set pretty loose to prevent exactly what happened?



What should I have done differently to prevent this? If I had wheel-landed her, I could have kept her straight with differential brakes?I don?t know what I could do given the same situation and a 3-pointer?any thoughts?

[N941WR]

Don,

Wheel land vs. three point it? That is a never ending debate.

When there is a strong crosswind, I like to wheel land it. However, runway length may also be a factor.

Wheel landings allow me time to get the airplane established on the upwind wheel. Then as speed bleeds off, I?ll let the other wheel touch. As you know, with both mains on the ground, you can ?pin? it. Then with brakes, throttle, and rudder you can choose when to set the tail down. Hopefully that will happen when the plane is going straight.

[KirkGrovesRV8]

Hi Don
Good job on saving it :-)
for what it's worth I always wheel land in a big cross wind, just always seems to work out better
Kirk

[lucky]

airspeed get too slow on final like you might on a nice calm day and land on the mains. Use anything and everything to keep it on the center line. When the plane slows down 'enough' I pull the stick all the way back 'sharply' and hold it all the way back to keep the tailwheel pinned to the runway.

[scsmith]

I'm a big fan of 3-pt landing. So this is really the dilemma - you have the right amount of rudder in for the nice, controlled, stabilized slip to touch-down.
Then the tail wheel touches and it all gets wierd because the wheel wants to steer immediately.

In the Citabria I flew for years, the chains were sort of tight, but had really soft springs with more travel. I never noticed any wierdness, even in 20+kt xwind with 3-pt landing.

On my newly flying -8, I have the Tail Lynx set up. I have zero slack in the cables when airborn. With the tail on the ground, there is some slack in the cables. Not much. The Lynx springs are pretty stiff and not a large amount of travel.

For the Rocket-Link guys, this must be an even bigger issue. Probably all the Rocket Link guys do always wheelies?

On both of my maiden landings, I kind of had the sense that the wheel went into free swivel - certainly something felt less than completely positive about the steering for a few seconds.

Do we want more slack or less slack? I think what I want is no slack, but longer, softer springs.

[sandifer]

Don brought up a rarely (never) mentioned point regarding the tailwheel offset when touching down 3-pt in a strong crosswind. Just so this thread doesn't veer off into the usual (beaten to death) wheel-landing vs. 3-point comments, I'm curious what others have to say regarding this specific point. I've never heard of anyone avoiding a crosswind 3-point landing because of this issue, so it seems not to be much of a factor for most folks.

It seems to me that, in most cases, the tailwheel springs would provide enough "give" to allow the tailwheel to self-align upon touchdown with the rudder still deflected. It seems this difference in angle between the rudder and tailwheel would typically not exceed the breakout angle and cause the tailwheel to unlock unless additional side-load (drift at touch down) occured.

I'm curious about this because I never thought much about it. Interested in others' thoughts and what checks may be in order on the tailwheel setup.

[Toobuilder]

Is the Vans supplied tailwheel actuated like the one from Aviation Specialties (AKA the Spruce "Homebuilders Special")? If so, there is NO breakout force at full rudder deflection. The index pin is "cammed out" of position by the rudder, and when it touches, it's gone. Don't ask me how I know! Full deflection of the rudder with the tailwheel on the ground is normally OK because the springs do not allow the corresponding full deflection of the tailwheel, so it stays cammed in place. The trick is to make sure the rudder is at an angle something less than where the cam starts to move at tailwheel contact (even if for an instant). After that, you're mostly OK.

[Ironflight]

Yes Michael, the API tailwheel and Van's tail wheel are identical in breakout characteristics - the pins are even interchangeable. If you truly have FULL rudder, the tail wheel will essential break out as soon as you touch it down.

I was one of those folks lucky enough to learn to fly in a tail dragger some three and a half decades and a few thousand tail dragger hours ago, and have always been more comfortable using a wheelie in a crosswind - in fact, that is what I was taught that they were for! I have never really thought about it in terms of preventing a swerve when the tailwheel touches down (more for having a little extra speed to manage the crosswind throughout the landing), but certainly, that is a bonus.

I too had a couple of interesting swerves in my initial RV-8 hours, mostly when I was trying to three-point it. Every model of airplane is different, and I just don't feel like I have as nice of control in a three-point landing in the 8, partially because of the ground handling aspect I guess. It is still one of the most forgiving tail wheel airplanes I have flown, but if you get it sideways and light at the same time, it can still bite you.

Do what works and leaves you the most margin.

Paul

[Pat Hatch]

Boy, am I going to open a can of worms here. I'm not advocating the following technique, just throwing it out there for consideration. This works for me and I'm wondering if anyone else uses it. In severe crosswinds, not mild crosswinds, I will sometimes land across the runway using a three-point landing. So, let's say the crosswind is from the right at 90 degrees. I will take out about 45 degrees of the crosswind by landing as much as 45 degrees across the runway, from left to right. This assumes at least a 150' wide runway, of course. Consider the advantages: one, it reduces your groundspeed at touchdown, thus your landing roll is minuscule; two, it reduces or eliminates the crosswind component; and, three, after touchdown, you have total tailwheel control so you can straighten the airplane out before you reach the other edge of the runway, and a gust of wind will be less likely to lift a wing. Of course, it's always advisable to divert to an airport with better conditions. Not for the inexperienced, I grant you, and not for every crosswind situation. Just another tool to consider. In an emergency, this just might save your bacon. As always, use good judgment.

[mannanj]

Originally Posted by Pat Hatch

So, let's say the crosswind is from the right at 90 degrees. I will take out about 45 degrees of the crosswind by landing as much as 45 degrees across the runway, from left to right. This assumes at least a 150' wide runway, of course. Consider the advantages: one, it reduces your groundspeed at touchdown, thus your landing roll is minuscule; two, it reduces or eliminates the crosswind component; and, three, after touchdown, you have total tailwheel control so you can straighten the airplane out before you reach the other edge of the runway, and a gust of wind will be less likely to lift a wing. Of course, it's always advisable to divert to an airport with better conditions. Not for the inexperienced, I grant you, and not for every crosswind situation. Just another tool to consider. In an emergency, this just might save your bacon. As always, use good judgment.

Pat:

I've done this too and it works even better if there's a "high speed" turnoff that you can use as as an extension of the "runway".