Mistral Slow Engine Work

[nucleus]

The only GA wankel rotary engine entity I know of in the news:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...&channel=busav

Mistral Slows Engine Work


Jul 21, 2009


Robert Wall/Paris wall@aviationweek.com


The slowdown in general aviation has driven Swiss rotary aircraft engine maker Mistral Engines to lay off staff and slow work.

The engine maker says it expects the slowdown to last six to nine months, after which it hopes to ramp up again. Also effected is development of the 300 hp G-300, which is being slowed but not halted.

Mistral this year sought a new round of capital to help transition to a full-blown production organization from a startup. But given the strain on financial markets, the capital increase has not been as successful as planned. In a statement, Mistral Engines says "although key potential investors have clearly demonstrated their interest to participate in this financing round, convinced about the potential of Mistral Engines' products and growth, the process was clearly impacted by the economic crisis. Investors are thus expected to join Mistral Engines' capital, but at a slower pace than anticipated."

The engine maker says the current situation is forcing layoffs at its Geneva site, with 11 persons affected. It is trying to protect development personnel and says it "will dedicate its activities and manpower almost exclusively to the certification of its 300 hp engine."

The company board has also approved a 1.5 million Swiss francs capital increase to help shore up its balance sheet. The engine maker remains fully financed by private equity. It expects to secure the additional capital in six-to-nine months, triggering the ramp-up of activities.

The engine maker was targeting an early 2010 FAA-type certification for the G-300, to be followed by approval from the European Aviation Safety Agency. That schedule is likely to slip, but by months, not years, says Philippe Durr, Mistral Engines's chief executive officer. "The target is still 2010," he says, but probably not the early part.

The long-term goal for the company is to reach 1,500 engine sales per year within five years.

[Rotary10-RV]

Communication with the rotary engine newsletter indicates that the certification of the 3 rotor 300 HP is continuing. They are still funded but won't be building a production facility until more investors are on-line. (Not a fast track item these days.) They are not closing but are slowing. Too bad since they have one of the best looking alternate engine systems out there right now.
Bill Jepson

[breister]

Looked around their site - did they ever start delivering ANY engines? How about the 230 turbo?

[Rotary10-RV]

Mistral made some ink in the avation press about securing sales to a european helicopter manufacturer. They have delivered a couple normally aspirated engines in the US. They decided sometime ago to push the 300 HP normally aspirated 3 rotor to certification. I think that is a mistake, but they weren't asking me anyway The certification process has been a new manufacturer killer on several occations. Columbia 400 is now a CESSSSSna. The Cirrus got very close to going under despite being a very nice aircraft. The use of the balistic parachute, and the short-circuiting of the certification process may have been a saver for them. Now the economy may be causing a much lower demand for the helicopter guys Mistral was contracted to. I believe the reason for pushing the 300 HP 3 rotor to certification first is to sell to the heli market. Personally I think any new ICE engine manufacturer that doesn't consider the homebuilt portion of GA as their first income source is wacko. I do believe that Vans sells more new Lycs that any other source, that should give these guys a clue. No matter how good your equipment is, YOU MUST SELL IT IN QUANTITY to make a profit. A reasonable price in the homebuilt market it the ticket. They could make and sell their engines to the homebuilt market now without all the hassle. My $.02
Bill Jepson

[rv6ejguy]

Yep. They are missing the biggest boat. It would be a shame if they don't make it now after all that work.

[Danny7]

Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV

The certification process has been a new manufacturer killer on several occations. Columbia 400 is now a CESSSSSna. The Cirrus got very close to going under despite being a very nice aircraft. .....
Bill Jepson

Columbia's financial problems had very little to do with the certification process.

[SvingenB]

Originally Posted by Rotary10-RV

I believe the reason for pushing the 300 HP 3 rotor to certification first is to sell to the heli market. Personally I think any new ICE engine manufacturer that doesn't consider the homebuilt portion of GA as their first income source is wacko.

There is one RV-10 in Denmark with a Mistral 3 rotor currently being build. He has a web page, but I don't remember the name at the moment. From what I remember reading the site a couple of months ago, the 3 rotor is far from functional, the dane had not received several key engine components dispite year old promises. Seems to me that Mistral's main problem is getting the engine to run properly (or at all). "Working on certification" is probably just an excuse, because they have no working product at all as far as I can see.

I think using the experimental marked to develop/test engines are totally flawed. Simply too many unknown variables creeping into the equations, drawing recources from development that could be used much better in a dedicated lab or test aircrafts. Certification is after all just a process to be sure that the engine satisfies (all) the demands in an aircraft.

[SvingenB]

Found it (the Mistral, RV-10 from Denmark)
http://www.rv10.dk/rv10/rv/mp/motore.html
http://www.rv10.dk/
Looks like the engine still is not finished, the ECU along with other essential parts are seemingly not working as expected, at least Mistral will not ship them.

[Rotary10-RV]

Originally Posted by SvingenB

Found it (the Mistral, RV-10 from Denmark)
http://www.rv10.dk/rv10/rv/mp/motore.html
http://www.rv10.dk/
Looks like the engine still is not finished, the ECU along with other essential parts are seemingly not working as expected, at least Mistral will not ship them.

I don't know why there is a problem. They have been flying the ECU for two years, so they must want to do some kind of updates. Sad really they have changed direction twice, and it sounds like they need to kill the engineer. I learned from an old mentor that a good part today is often better than a perfect part next year. They have been flying for a long time. They have never had an engine internal failure. They did have a muffler failure that caused a crash. Sad since they didn't build the muffler. They need a specific direction. They have had engines running for a long time, and the technology isn't new. They are using the Mazda dimensions. I don't think they are using the customer as a test bed, at least Mistral isn't. They are fitting the 3 rotor to a Maule for continued testing. I hope they get it together as their work has been beautiful on everything I've seen. I'd love to buy their PSRU but they aren't selling other than complete engine packages, no homebuilt sales at all.
Bill Jepson

[SvingenB]

Yes, it would be nice to see some Mistrals flying. I contacted them a year and a half ago, and they could sell me a two rotor then - for twice the price of a Lycoming O360 The US$ is more favourable now (for European producers), but a Mistral would still be at least 50% more expensive. And it doesn't look like they are selling anything at the moment.

IMO the complexity of aircraft engines are underestimated. A lycoming is a 60-70 year old technology, and it is seemingly a simple design. But the thing is, it is a perfect design for it's purpose, and everything "simple" about it, is carefully thought through from the very beginning, and probably a zillion times more over the years.

It looks like Wankel technology is just too difficult. Even though it is old, there is probably only a handfull of engineers in the entire world today that really know this technology at a production/design level, and all of them are at Mazda. Without the recources and dedication that Mazda have, I think it will be very difficult to convert the engine to aviation and at the same time come anywhere near the level of optimal usability that the Lycomings have (impossible if we take total operational cost into consideration as well).

I think the only engine that could possibly be better than a Lycoming is an increased Rotax 912, 6 cylinder boxer with 3L volume (maybe V8 for 300 HP range). It has to be as simple as the 912 as well with 100% redundant CDI/mags and carb or mechanical FI and partly air partly liquid cooled. The closest thing is probably a Subaru, but those engines are modern automobile designs with huge and heavy cooling systems and ECUs.

I mean, if we look at successful aircraft engines today, we have Lycoming, Rotax and to a lesser extent the Jabiru. All have mags/CDI, all have carb/mechanical FI, all are air cooled or partly air cooled (Rotax), and all are designed from the ground up to be used exclusively on aicrafts. If Mistral really wanted to produce engines for the aviation industry, why not look at things that works, study them and find out why they are successful - and then design something at least remotely based on that?