Request Guidance: Trail, close & extended

[PCHunt]

Originally Posted by L'Avion

Assuming that you are Lead, have planned some extended trail culminating in a barrel roll, #2 is proficient in aerobatics but hasn't followed through as #2 doing a barrel roll in extended trail, and that you have briefed a 3 second interval to pitch out into the extended trail: How do you instruct #2 as to when to begin his pull up into the vertical to follow you through your barrel roll?

First, seems to me that a 3 second interval is too much, and will result in too much nose-to-tail distance, which will make the maneuvers more difficult. A one-second break, if lead does a 60-degree angle-of-bank turn for 180 degrees, will give a good interval.

Second, the idea for each successive wingman is to fly through the same air that the lead flys through. So you pull up when you reach the spot that the lead pulled up. Or you begin the roll at the same spot where lead began the roll.

And if you get sucked, you cut to the inside (Lead the turn)
And if you get too close, you go outside the turn (Lag the turn)

A good lead will turn nearly continuously when leading tailchase, so that the wingies can lead or lag.

Hope this helps, and agree with Smokey. Go to a clinic, and fly with the experts.

[ronschreck]

Originally Posted by jclark

Knowing Ron (super nice guy and great pilot and flight lead), I **THINK** what he was trying to get across in an **intended to be nice way** was ...

Some things just cannot be adequately explained via email and forums. Somethings must be demonstrated and learned with the guidance of those who have experienced it many times.

Another point (that I will make) is that even though YOU may be very experienced, there comes a point wherein the info here could easily be mis-used by someone with less experience. It all sounded so easy in the "lecture" part of the clinics in the beginning. But the real flights were wake-up calls.

The invitation to "see you at the next clinic" is a genuine "come on over some time" and we will work it all out together type comment.

James
FFI Flight Lead but too "skeered" to do what you are discussing without a LOT of one on one training for ME from folks like Ron.

Thanks James. I couldn't have said it better myself. (And evidently I didn't!) Barney, no offense was/is intended. I really would like to fly with you at a clinic. This is tough stuff to do on a forum.

[Bill Wightman]

This YouTube video was shot from the back seat of lead's 4. After the rejoin to three, we did a series of oblique loops. That's me flying two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RzzQqaktDM

This is really tight trail, done intentionally while trying to stay close to the camera. At this distance, it was hard to manage all the effects of the looping maneuvers, the prop dissimilarities (FP for me and lead was CS), and camera requirements. You can see how lead/lag affects the formation. No power changes were made throughout the trail sequence.

As you can see, I was flying just offset enough to miss lead's wake. But, in the last loop I slid in right into the slot, and Bam! Hit the wake big time; my prop ate all that dirty air and it was like shutting the engine off! You can see me get spit out really bad at the end; had to even relax the pull a little to prevent stalling.

Both of us here were ex-USAF instructor pilots (ok, let the jokes begin!) and taught formation as part of the job. This isn't as easy as it might look, so don't take this post as license for a noob to go try anything special.

edit: Extended trail is managed with lead/lag geometry in the formation. So, when you get really tight, like toward the end of the video here, its hard to use lead/lag to manage position because you're just too close. At the opposite end of the scale, being too far away also poses problems. There, lead/lag becomes hard to judge due to the curving flight path and small position changes will make really large changes in lead or lag.

The lesson: there's a "sweet spot" for extended trail formation, dependent on aircraft type.