Request Guidance: Trail, close & extended

[L'Avion]

Who can provide what guidance for in trail formation (RV-types), including 2-ship, 3 & 4-ship, as pertains to in trail, close & extended; and where over-the-top maneuvers are recommended (or not)?

Please provide references for suggestions as in example below:

T-6 FORMATION

"Do not fly over-the-top maneuvers in close trail formation (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36 .15.). ... Limit extended trail to two-ship formations (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.14. ... 6.6.2. and T-6A Primary Flying Manual, 8.5.4.). FENCE-Out means: Fuel, ..."
www.baseops.net/militarypilot/T-6Form_Gouge.doc

"Close Trail:

No visual signal. Lead will call “CS go close trail” (Texan II Flying Standards, 6.4.5.8.).

When leading close trail, limit maneuvering to turns and modified lazy eights, using approximately 90 of bank, 2 to 3 Gs, and 120 knots minimum (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.15.).

Do not fly over-the-top maneuvers in close trail formation (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.15.).

Extended Trail:

Perform a G-awareness exercise prior to flying maneuvers in the extended trail exercise (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.14.).

Lead will porpoise the aircraft and then pitchout or call “CS go extended trail” (Texan II Flying Standards, 6.4.5.7.).

Lead will set 90% torque in the low MOA and MAX torque in the high MOA (Texan II Flying Standards, 6.5.4.).

Limit extended trail maneuvers to turns, lazy eights (using bank angles not to exceed approximately 120), barrel rolls, cloverleafs, modified cuban eights, and loops. Do not perform abrupt turn reversals; that is, turns in one direction followed by a rapid, unanticipated roll into a turn in the opposite direction (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.14.).

Limit extended trail to two-ship formations (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.14.).

During the entry to extended trail, maintain a minimum of 300 feet from Lead and do not go forward of Lead’s 3/9 line (Interim T-6 V3, 3.36.14.)."

Thanks in advance for any help.

Barney in Memphis

[JonJay]

They will tell you what you need to know. Then hook up with your local FFI group, be safe, and have fun.

[PCHunt]

Barney-

Your references all appear to be from the military, and the turboprop T-6A TEXAN II. Different "beast" than the RV.

My civilian experience is in the AT-6/SNJ community, where we also use the T-34 formation manual as our primary reference for standardization. The FAST program is a good source: www.flyfast.org

The FFI program is what RV's use: www.formationfly.org

[Stu McCurdy]

From RV Supplement:
-------------
Trail. Lead will signal Trail formation by a porpoise (small and quick elevator movements so as to wag the tail up/down without changing altitude) and #2, #3, and #4 will drop back and into trail in sequence. If briefed, only #4 calls when in position ?4s In?. Each aircraft should attempt to fly just below the prop wash/wingtip vortices by lining up the tail wheel with the pilots head (or looking straight into the exhaust stacks). Spacing between aircraft should be ? to ? of a ship length from rudder to prop. Keep the wings level with lead and if the aircraft in front bounces a bit, look through him and fly off of lead. Trail is a power anticipation exercise. Think about what is happening with lead?s airspeed and anticipate. If lead is passing through the horizon downward, add power then, not when you reach horizon or you will be sucked fast. Similarly, if he is passing the horizon upward, ease off power then so you don?t close. Once stabilized replace power to stay in position. A rejoin to fingertip is signaled by a very shallow wing rock.

Extended Trail. Lead signals extended trail by a radio call. It is normally entered from trail (Lead turns and wingmen delay turn to achieve spacing) or after a pitchout. Spacing is normally 500? to 1000? in trail. Last man calls ?In? when all ships gain proper spacing. Whereas trail is a power management exercise to keep position, extended trail is a relatively constant power energy management exercise. To keep position, follow the leader?s flight path, but fade a little inside or outside of the turn as needed to close or extend. Match leader?s bank and pitch at the point he was when you get there. Rejoin to fingertip is signaled by lead?s large wingrock.
---------------
Angle of bank and pitch is determined by flight lead based on experience level of wingmen. Aerobatics are generally not done in close trail, sometimes done on top in extended trail, and then only with very experienced wingmen. Remember, these are training exercises to gain proficiency in maintaining position formation. Only highly trained and experienced formation team members who practice regularly should explore the boundaries, and then only in appropriate airspace.

[L'Avion]

Re-focusing to my original question: Who can provide what guidance for in trail formation (RV-types), including 2-ship, 3 & 4-ship, as pertains to in trail, close & extended; and where over-the-top maneuvers are recommended (or not)?

I have electronic copies of:
T-34 Formation Manual,
RV Supplement to the T-34 Manual; neither of which gets into close, or extended trail, + over-the top maneuvers
Red Star Pilots Association (RPA) - Formation Manual, but is copyrighted, so I'm reluctant to print their stuff here.

The RPA formation manual does address 2-3-4 ship extended trail and over-the-top maneuvers, but was written with the "Red Star" airplanes in mind and may, or may not, apply to RV-types.

Redirecting to RV-type formation flight, how advisable is it to fly 2-ship close trail over-the top; 2-ship extended trail over-the top; 4-ship close trail over-the-top; 4-ship extended trail over-the-top (3-ship included in 4-ship)? Obviously, what I'm looking for here is "Chapter & Verse" from some authoritative body.

Some links for ref:

http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation.../P-3670073.htm

http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation.../P-3670079.htm

www.baseops.net/militarypilot/T-6Form_Gouge.doc

Barney in Memphis

[ronschreck]

Originally Posted by L'Avion

Re-focusing to my original question: Who can provide what guidance for in trail formation (RV-types), including 2-ship, 3 & 4-ship, as pertains to in trail, close & extended; and where over-the-top maneuvers are recommended (or not)?

Redirecting to RV-type formation flight, how advisable is it to fly 2-ship close trail over-the top; 2-ship extended trail over-the top; 4-ship close trail over-the-top; 4-ship extended trail over-the-top (3-ship included in 4-ship)? Obviously, what I'm looking for here is "Chapter & Verse" from some authoritative body.


Barney in Memphis

Barney,

Extended trail maneuvers in the RV are fun and easy. Here are the basics I teach: Fly in a cone withing 60 degrees of the tail of the plane in front of you. Stay 500 to 1000 feet in trail. Use cutoff or lag instead of power to maintain spaceing. Lead should use a moderate power setting (18-20 inches) and stick with positive "G's. Continuous turns will allow wingmen to use cutoff/lag to stay in. Barrel rolls and loops are a piece of cake, but should only be attempted after mastering the basics.

Close trail is covered in the T-34 Manual and this is "THE" book for RV formation training and standards. The RV Supplement is intended as a supplement to the T-34 manual. Close trail is covered but does not specifically address over-the-top maneuvering. Once proficient in close trail work the wingmen should not care whether the leader is upright or inverted as long as positive "G's" are maintained throughout the maneuver. However, this is far from the Saturday afternoon 2-G, 30 dagree bank sort of formation flying and you had best be very proficient and professional in your approach to close formation work. I suggest you attend one of the FFI formation clinics and hook up with an active formation group near your home base. Start slow, build your proficiency and maybe in a few years you will feel comfortable doing all the stuff you have been reading about.

[L'Avion]

Assuming that you are Lead, have planned some extended trail culminating in a barrel roll, #2 is proficient in aerobatics but hasn't followed through as #2 doing a barrel roll in extended trail, and that you have briefed a 3 second interval to pitch out into the extended trail: How do you instruct #2 as to when to begin his pull up into the vertical to follow you through your barrel roll?

[ronschreck]

Originally Posted by L'Avion

Assuming that you are Lead, have planned some extended trail culminating in a barrel roll, #2 is proficient in aerobatics but hasn't followed through as #2 doing a barrel roll in extended trail, and that you have briefed a 3 second interval to pitch out into the extended trail: How do you instruct #2 as to when to begin his pull up into the vertical to follow you through your barrel roll?

OK, you gotta' stop overthinking and over-reading about formation flying. See you at the next clinic. It will all become clear when you DO it!

[L'Avion]

Geez, Ron, what have I done to cause you to have a feather in your grawker?

In the interest of safety, I've been trying to ask valid questions about flying close and extended trail - questions that the manuals that I've seen don't address adequately; and rather than trying to help, it seems like you'd rather jump on me personally. What about the other pilots reading this thread that may be wondering the same things that I am? How can we help them, if we get into a [deleted] contest?

FYI - Despite my over reading and over thinking, this past Sunday morning I was #3 who managed to hang in there in some extended trail where #2's G-meter read 5.5 after our sortie. I have no idea what mine read (doesn't record), as I was grunting to hard and paying too much attention to what was going on outside to look down and see it.

Looking forward to your helpful suggestions in these matters.

Barney in Memphis

[jclark]

Originally Posted by L'Avion

Geez, Ron, what have I done to cause you to have a feather in your grawker?

In the interest of safety, I've been trying to ask valid questions about flying close and extended trail - questions that the manuals that I've seen don't address adequately; and rather than trying to help, it seems like you'd rather jump on me personally. What about the other pilots reading this thread that may be wondering the same things that I am? How can we help them, if we get into a [deleted] contest?

FYI - Despite my over reading and over thinking, this past Sunday morning I was #3 who managed to hang in there in some extended trail where #2's G-meter read 5.5 after our sortie. I have no idea what mine read (doesn't record), as I was grunting to hard and paying too much attention to what was going on outside to look down and see it.

Looking forward to your helpful suggestions in these matters.

Barney in Memphis

Knowing Ron (super nice guy and great pilot and flight lead), I **THINK** what he was trying to get across in an **intended to be nice way** was ...

Some things just cannot be adequately explained via email and forums. Somethings must be demonstrated and learned with the guidance of those who have experienced it many times.

Another point (that I will make) is that even though YOU may be very experienced, there comes a point wherein the info here could easily be mis-used by someone with less experience. It all sounded so easy in the "lecture" part of the clinics in the beginning. But the real flights were wake-up calls.

The invitation to "see you at the next clinic" is a genuine "come on over some time" and we will work it all out together type comment.

James
FFI Flight Lead but too "skeered" to do what you are discussing without a LOT of one on one training for ME from folks like Ron.