Dan Lloyd RV-10 "Factual" report out...

[Bryan Wood]

Well after finally reading the report I understand the other active safety threads that are going on a little more clearly. While reading the report my jaw was gaping open and if the result hadn't been somebodies life it would have read like a comedy. Before reading any bodies replies my mind locked on the engine manufacturer. Aren't the EGG FWF packages basically ready to be bolted to the firewall, then after power and fuel connections are hooked up isn't the thing ready to start? I know that is simplistic, but back when I didn't consider one of those that was more or less the impression I was getting from the adds. I think something has to be drastically wrong with the FAA's write up. Simply put I cannot believe Jan saw any of what we read about under the hood of this airplane and didn't correct or demand it corrected. To believe he knowingly flew in it without electrical power connected, or having ever been connected is something I struggle with. His engine packages are beautiful and his attention to detail conflicts with the investigations findings. Then to believe that the engine manufacturer used this airplane as a sales platform at OSH with the cowl off where there are literally thousands of people a day looking at it with everything completely Mickey Moused seems outragious and frankly I don't believe it. I'm more inclined to believe things were prettied up for Jan and re-moused later. Does anybody out there have pictures that they took of this plane at OSH that they can post? Somewhere out there somebody had to have taken shots of it. I'm betting everything was connected at that time.

Edit... After going back and reading more responses, Ross F. alludes to this being a temperary engine that was used at Osh. Is that what happened? Did a different engine get added later on? This is hard to follow.

[Tomasz]

Originally Posted by Bryan Wood

I'm more inclined to believe things were prettied up for Jan and re-moused later. Does anybody out there have pictures that they took of this plane at OSH that they can post? Somewhere out there somebody had to have taken shots of it. I'm betting everything was connected at that time.

Edit... After going back and reading more responses, Ross F. alludes to this being a temperary engine that was used at Osh. Is that what happened? Did a different engine get added later on? This is hard to follow.

The report is clear to me, it was the same engine, just with turbo finally added. According to the report the 'mousing' happened just a day before accident when Dan finally did real weight and balance, found out that his CG is way in the back and moved battery without properly redoing all connections.

That's how I read it.

[rleffler]

Originally Posted by Bryan Wood

Aren't the EGG FWF packages basically ready to be bolted to the firewall, then after power and fuel connections are hooked up isn't the thing ready to start? ISimply put I cannot believe Jan saw any of what we read about under the hood of this airplane and didn't correct or demand it corrected. To believe he knowingly flew in it without electrical power connected, or having ever been connected is something I struggle with. His engine packages are beautiful and his attention to detail conflicts with the investigations findings. Then to believe that the engine manufacturer used this airplane as a sales platform at OSH with the cowl off where there are literally thousands of people a day looking at it with everything completely Mickey Moused seems outragious and frankly I don't believe it. I'm more inclined to believe things were prettied up for Jan and re-moused later. Does anybody out there have pictures that they took of this plane at OSH that they can post? Somewhere out there somebody had to have taken shots of it. I'm betting everything was connected at that time.

Your conclusions aren't accurate. Jan was in 4G1 and did the majority of the work on the engine install while I was observing one day. I was just starting my RV-10 build and was very curious since Dan had the first one. A friend and I flew over for the day.

All I will say is after this day and after some conversations with both Dan and Jan at OSH that year, I decided that I would not be installing one of Jan's engines in my aircraft.

Dan did move his battery later. There was only one engine installed in Dan's aircraft.

[NYTOM]

How did this man get that far without someone stepping in?
IF anyone witnesses me going in this direction on my project you have my permission to grab me by the collar and slap me silly.
Wow, I still can't believe that report!

[RickWoodall]

I have to ask how the engine supplier got through that report without some serious issues. Yes, i fully agree that the builder of the aircraft is the last word and absolutely responsible but...to fly cross country with the engine builder, remove a blade from the prop, disable safety sensors...just amazing. I believe Dan is resposible, but the engine supplier sure seems to be a contributior to this not the voice of reason, or a big helper or a technical assistant...merely a product pusher assisting in getting it to market (osh) no matter the cost. He had to know the hours, the issues, the risks...he has been around long enough that he could not have turned a blind eye by accident. What a truly awful report to be public. Sure puts the scare back in "experimental" when we all are trying so hard to make the best, safest aircraft we can for our family, ourselves and our insurance. What a shame.

[TSwezey]

Dan was the reason for the crash. The engine does not run without power. Dan moved the battery up front and did not properly fasten/install it. The cables were not properly crimped. The Sube would have been running if it had juice.

[Mike S]

Originally Posted by TSwezey

Dan was the reason for the crash. The engine does not run without power. Dan moved the battery up front and did not properly fasten/install it. The cables were not properly crimped. The Sube would have been running if it had juice.

Thanks Todd.

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by rv6ejguy

Actually, it was the other way around. Dan was continually bugging Jan for the turbo engine which was not ready at the time even to the point of insisting "it must be here" next week to install. The fact was the engine simply was not ready nor would it be in time. That is why an atmo engine was fitted for the show. Dan was always making impossible timetable demands on vendors for parts and services. In a mad rush for everything. Jan felt under pressure from Dan always on this aspect and was stressed about it. Not trying to defend Jan here, just set the record straight. Of course it would be good for the airplane to be at Osh. Jan was trying to sell engine packages but it was Dan pushing Jan to make it that year, not the other way around.

Sad that it had to end this way. Dan loved his -10 and the idea of the turbo Subaru engine.

If I may add to what Ross says, I met Dan Lloyd ever so briefly at OSH 07 just long enough to say hello in front of his airplane. It was parked with the EGG display which was located behind Vans tent in the aircraft display area.

I was impressed that the airplane had been flown in. It was a long way from being completed - you see more completed machines on display that were trucked in. But that's neither here nor there, lots of airplanes are flown before they are finished. All you need is the paper work.

I spoke more with Jan than Dan Lloyd. They were making good progress to fix the cooling issue. The Lloyd H6 had the larger radiators and they had just completed a new cowl before the flight. Jan had it stashed away behind the tent because it looked like a sows ear, but the design made sense in that it did provide for max air flow directly through the new large rads. It was the prototype of what the EGG factory provides today. In typical designer fashion, Jan showed me a napkin drawing that was used to build it. It was most interesting to me because my H6 cooling issues were unresolved. I had flown in but not without the usual special techniques to control temperatures.

Although it was just a cursory look, I did not see anything about the RV-10 that would render it not fit to fly. But it did not meet the usual display appearance of airplanes in that area of the show. I know it irritated the guys at the Vans booth just next door because I spoke with one of them whom I have known for some time.

I do not know who was the driving force to get the airplane to OSH in that condition, but clearly its appearance was not good for EGG sales and probably did not impress anyone wandering in from the Vans display either. But Dan Lloyd, sitting in a high chair, appeared to be pleased to be there. And rightfully so, it was no small feat pulling it off.

It appears at this time that if Dan Lloyd had crimped those battery cables properly, he would still be working on resolving some of the less critical items. But who knows what else might have popped up and bitten him in the butt. Thank goodness, his wife and kids are alive. There was an earlier tragedy with a Velocity and a prop failure that took out an entire family of 4, we don't need any more of those.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X09130&key=1

[Sam Buchanan]

Six posts were deleted because they were taking this important thread off into unrelated areas about ignition systems that weren't on the Lloyd aircraft.

[Bryan Wood]

Originally Posted by Tomasz

The report is clear to me, it was the same engine, just with turbo finally added. According to the report the 'mousing' happened just a day before accident when Dan finally did real weight and balance, found out that his CG is way in the back and moved battery without properly redoing all connections.

That's how I read it.

Got it. I went back and re-read Ross's post. He had written, "That is why an atmo engine was fitted for the show." I mistook that statement as Mr. Loyd having a different engine for Osh than what he would ultimately be delivered from Egg. My mistake.