Dan Lloyd RV-10 "Factual" report out...

[rjt194]

Originally Posted by Jamie

You only need the complex endorsement if the airplane has ALL three (controllable pitch prop, retractable gear AND flaps) unless it is a seaplane and in that case you need the endorsement if it has flaps and an adjustable pitch prop.

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's sensible.

Let me rephrase what I originally said. If having wobbly prop (or high performance engine, or retractable undercarriage), it would be sensible to ensure that you have had the appropriate training and, where appropriate, sign-off from the instructor (even if not a full complex endorsement) so that you, your family, and the NTSB know that you knew what you were doing and not making it up as you went along, even when it might not be strictly legally required

[Frank Smidler]

In defense of the inspector we must look at the sequence of events to see the root cause.

1. The A/C crashed short of the airport.
2. The report indicates power loss which prevented it from making the airport.
3. The engine accessories required to operate require constant electrical power.
4. Battery cables were found not to be properly connected to the terminals. (further supported by info on the builder not having the proper tool for crimping) resulting in no electrical power.
5. The battery was moved forward, thus requiring new cables, "AFTER" the flight worthy inspection. The inspector could not have found this issue because it did not exist at the time.
6. The battery had to be moved forward because the CG was found to be too far aft during flight testing.
7. The CG was not done prior to the inspection. A copy of another planes CG was used.

In the end a decision NOT to follow the regulations PRIOR to the inspection, i.e. doing a weight and balance, was the beginning of the chain of events that led to this tragedy. In total the report shows a total lack of respect for regulations in general. There seemed to be an attitude of "Oh they don't apply to ME". Every time we think of ignoring a reg remember why they are, which is to IMPROVE SAFETY. Most of the regulations were introduced due to past tragedies and if we ignore them and more accidents occur that should not have more draconian regs will follow (i.e. Vegas).

[fmarino1976]

From what I read, it seems to me that the aircraft stalled pretty close to the ground, that would explain the angle of impact. I also noticed that the efis system was never properly calibrated, so I believe it's possible that the pilot did not have accurate airspeed information, and as any one of us would try to do, the pilot was trying to fly the aircraft as slow as possible before the forced landing. Again, this is just my observation.

[Rick S.]

One of the saddest parts of this whole thing is most of us in the RV-10 community on the Matronics list knew Dan and his posts generated a ton of head shaking. After seeing his airplane at OSH prior to the crash I was not surprised when I read about it, nor do I suspect others who were familiar with his project. It hit hard for me because afterwards you question if you could have intervened further. He was a robust guy who loved his family and the RV-10 very much. The path by all of us who communicated our concerns to him was worn deep taking that horse to water. Any assumptions who the passenger on the first flight? I can't help to think there was great pressure to get that airplane to OSH for display...

Speculative comments deleted----------

[ArVeeNiner]

First I'd like to say I feel very sorry for his family's loss. Losing a loved one or a father like that is just a horrible horrible thing and my heart goes out to his family. That is very rough.

Secondly, I, like most readers of the report, was rendured speechless for a long while. The guy was just destin to turn that airplane into a smoking hole in the ground and it's fortunate that he didn't take anybody else with him. Oh, and by the way, shame on him for jeopardizing the safety of others, including his wife, by flying them in an aircraft full of issues.

There was a "speculative" comment that was dealt a swift blow earlier today. Now I don't want to speculate but I'd like to state the facts as we know them:

1-The guy over the years, through online posts, had made comments that had caused others in the RV community concern over the safety of his build. It sounds like right up until the night before the crash that people were reaching out and trying to get through to him.

Now, this might be speculative but to drum up this kind of concern among the RV community I would think that he was making obviously questionable comments and performing questionable practices throughout the build.

2-The guy was in a hurry to get to OSH. The question is, why was he in such a hurry to rush through his Phase I, if he ever actually completed it, and fly with uncalibrated instruments, and a marginally functional prop? Well, maybe it was that he just loved airplanes like we do and just wanted to go to the show of shows. Or, you can take a look at these photographs of his airplane at that very show:

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N289DT.html

You can see clearly from the middle picture that Eggenfellner was advertising the same set up that Mr. Lloyd had in his aircraft. I'll leave it at that.

Now, if the fact that he maintained that he flew off 40 hours in a week didn't raise a flag with anybody close to him, certainly the fact that he didn't understand all the bells and whistles in that aircraft should have. Or, the fact that nothing was calibrated, right up to the DG, should have. Certainly the non-functional prop or the missing turbo should have.

I think we have established that these items WERE a concern to those who corresponded with him, talked with him on the phone, or read his posts. Now, if the vast majority of RVers that paruse the online lists had a concern with his practices, certainly somebody working, or flying along side of him should have seen the red flags too.

Even after flying back to Florida the second time and working on the plane for months, the instruments still weren't calibrated and Mr. Lloyd still didn't understand how to use them. I gather from the NTSB report that the majority of the time back in Florida the second time was spent dealing with engine issues, which of course IS a good thing to do. But, there were other issues that shouldn't have been ignored.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it seems that it was not only Dan Lloyd who wanted to get to OSH badly. I think somebody needed to take a deep breath somewhere along the line and call a big time out...someone who didn't have get-there or get-done itis like Dan. It's a shame that nobody was able to save Dan from himself.

Let's all remember that we owe it to our loved ones to take care of ourselves and do our best to ensure that we come home every night. We have a dangerous hobby and our loved ones expect us to use our heads. If some shortcut or careless decision ends in our demise, our family's pain and their unanswered questions will last for the rest of their lives.

Be safe, go slow, and take a deep breath every now and again and ask yourself "What the heck am I doing here?"

[Rick S.]

Originally Posted by Rick S.

One of the saddest parts of this whole thing is most of us in the RV-10 community on the Matronics list knew Dan and his posts generated a ton of head shaking. After seeing his airplane at OSH prior to the crash I was not surprised when I read about it, nor do I suspect others who were familiar with his project. It hit hard for me because afterwards you question if you could have intervened further. He was a robust guy who loved his family and the RV-10 very much. The path by all of us who communicated our concerns to him was worn deep taking that horse to water. Any assumptions who the passenger on the first flight? I can't help to think there was great pressure to get that airplane to OSH for display...

Speculative comments deleted----------

OK.....So I'll drop my speculation and change it to a darn good observation. Based on my observation the engine manufacter imposed a great deal of pressure to get Dan's airplane and his product to OSH...That was said in a roundabout but very easy to understand comment by Dan himself at a small BBQ the day before OSH opened it's doors..I understand the censorship, At times I hate it. So I'm sure this will last just a few minutes as well..He was a friend, hard headed at times, but nontheless a friend. Now only the NTSB will speak for him and they are talking in circles and around the subject as well.

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by Rick S.

OK.....So I'll drop my speculation and change it to a darn good observation. Based on my observation the engine manufacter imposed a great deal of pressure to get Dan's airplane and his product to OSH...That was said in a roundabout but very easy to understand comment by Dan himself at a small BBQ the day before OSH opened it's doors..I understand the censorship, At times I hate it. So I'm sure this will last just a few minutes as well..He was a friend, hard headed at times, but nontheless a friend. Now only the NTSB will speak for him and they are talking in circles and around the subject as well.

Actually, it was the other way around. Dan was continually bugging Jan for the turbo engine which was not ready at the time even to the point of insisting "it must be here" next week to install. The fact was the engine simply was not ready nor would it be in time. That is why an atmo engine was fitted for the show. Dan was always making impossible timetable demands on vendors for parts and services. In a mad rush for everything. Jan felt under pressure from Dan always on this aspect and was stressed about it. Not trying to defend Jan here, just set the record straight. Of course it would be good for the airplane to be at Osh. Jan was trying to sell engine packages but it was Dan pushing Jan to make it that year, not the other way around.

Sad that it had to end this way. Dan loved his -10 and the idea of the turbo Subaru engine.

[DanH]

Forget scapegoats.

Dan Lloyd wanted an RV-10, but he blew off the necessary investments in education, physical skills, craftsmanship, and patience. It cost him his life.

That's the lesson.

There are probably 1000 builders right here, right now, laboring under the impression that all they need to do is follow the vendor instructions to successfully assemble a kit airplane. Oh yes, the ease of kit construction and the many vendor products are wonderful.......but dumbing down the process is the other edge of the kitplane knife.

This is not a race to finish and fly. It is an opportunity to develop yourself in a great many ways. It is also very serious business. If you're not willing to pay the price, maybe this isn't the hobby for you. The RV community already has way too many POS airplanes built by nice guys.

[pvalovich]

How many times during the building process do we hear of someone else doing things a bit - or a lot - differently, evaluate that process but ultimately discard it as not appropriate for our project? Usually end up with an "Even though it's not for me and I don't like it, he probably knows a lot more about it than I do and has decided it's ok" conclusion, which reenforces our natural tendancy to avoid confrontation.

I didn't know Dan - and away from the homebuilt process he may have been the most brilliant guy in the world - but his decision mindset and processes regarding his RV-10 were just plain stupid.

You can't fix stupid.

Can anyone think of - based on the fragmented information you had regarding various systems in Dan's plane - any kind of intervention that would have changed his building philosophy? I think the only thing that may have would have been an event that scared the s**t out of him - but unfortunately, that type of event normaly runs the ragged edge between life and death.

Dan's legacy is now an appreciation from the rest of us of very painful lessons learned.

[roadrunner20]

Wow, one scary report.
I remember hearing about Dan doing his phase 1 in 1 week. And, he was using an auto-conversion Egg setup with CS prop.

My thoughts were, "there is no way he could have completed the phase 1 in 1 week".

We are given 40 hours for a reason. I needed all of that and was very meticulous in my testing to make sure I was not putting myself or my family in harms way.

We should all learn from this.